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Thread: Call to Action: Ensure that OpenGL remains a first class API under Windows Vista

  1. #31
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    Re: Call to Action: Ensure that OpenGL remains a first class API under Windows Vista

    Originally posted by barthold:
    We believe it possible to provide an ICD with full composited desktop support while adhering to the stability and security requirements in Windows Vista. But we need Microsoft's help in doing so.
    Obviously IHV's can circumvent the problem but they need Microsofts help and they need your help. Don't wait for the problem to be fixed. Email your nVidia, ATI, et al and tell them to make OpenGL a first class API. Even if you think this is FUD, send the email. It'll take you all of two minutes. You may end up being sorry if you don't.

  2. #32
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    Re: Call to Action: Ensure that OpenGL remains a first class API under Windows Vista

    Apple has a composite desktop technology with doublebuffering like Aeroglass that is full compatible with OpenGL. If they can do it why not Microsoft ?

    My question is first is : In this case, what Microsoft need to do is allow and help to the 3d Accelerated Hardware Manufacturers is to write Instalable Client Drivers that support OpenGL and the new Composite Desktop resulting in 0% performace loose in Windows Vista ?

    Second : Microsoft don't must deactive composite desktop (Aeroglass) when a Installable Client Driver (ICD) is loaded ?

    Third : What is the main benefit of the Aeroglass composite desktop for Windows user, a user interface flicker-free, smoth windows moving, continuos video, anything else ?

    Four: If we make enough preasure like costumers this can change the things ? How ?

  3. #33
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    Re: Call to Action: Ensure that OpenGL remains a first class API under Windows Vista

    there is a conversation going on at gamedev.net on tis topic also.

    one of the moderators, Yann L seems to have a grasp of what effects this may have, not good.

    I summarised most of his thoughts from the thread to an off-topic post on groklaw.net

    This part seemed most relevant...

    "Sure. As Barthold mentioned, 3DLabs don't see a problem with making their OpenGL drivers work on Aeroglass without any wrapper at all, at full speed and full feature set. They only need MS to give them the details of the internal driver/Aeroglass interface. Should this become available to them, then both 3DLabs and Nvidia would create a compatible driver in no time. ATI won't have a choice, and will have to join.

    The problem is that MS doesn't want to give them that info, because they want to see GL dead. So either 3DLabs & co manage to put enough pressure on MS, or this issue is sorted out by an anti-competitivity lawsuit against MS. At least in the EU, a new directive forces software manufacturers to open file formats, protocols, and interfaces to the competition under certain circumstances. This might come in handy."

  4. #34
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    Re: Call to Action: Ensure that OpenGL remains a first class API under Windows Vista

    Well this is no surprise.

    But it is clear - the time has come to stop building for the latest versions of Windows.

    Apple is coming to intel, linux continues to shine. Win XP and 2k will continue to support OpenGL. The choices are rich and abundant. The PS3 is coming.

    Linux in the server room, Mac on the desktop, PS3 at home. And they all use TCPIP and OpenGL.

    Anyone with an ounce of moral fiber will refuse to cave to such monopolistic practices. Open Standards like tcp/ip and OpenGL are clearly what the industry needs.

    I am buying my Mac tomorrow.

    XCode here I come.

  5. #35
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    Re: Call to Action: Ensure that OpenGL remains a first class API under Windows Vista

    Although I was somehow disappointed by that, it does not necessarily mean that their intention is degrading OpenGL and attract more and more developers from deifferent arenas to the Direct3D world.
    They may want to relief some hardware vendors from providing OpenGL drivers and hence linux will have no chance in 3D acceleration since it's still now a developer-spare.
    I remebr that 3Dfx did the same for OpenGL, wrapping their neat decent API, called Glide. so it's up to the implentor to decide how to implemnt it, then how come Mesa3D provides a software impl. so it's an option and Direct3D impl would not be worst at all.
    You see.

    What could be done? Nothing. Switch to Mac OS X.
    I beleive that the creator of the platofr knows better than us.

  6. #36
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    Re: Call to Action: Ensure that OpenGL remains a first class API under Windows Vista

    Since I have access to Vista I performed some tests.
    System:
    - Vista Beta1(AMDx64)
    - AMDx64
    - ATI Radeon 9800 Pro

    After install Aero is the active desktop theme. When I started up a small OpenGL application of my own I got an OpenGL view but with several artifacts. The renderer string gave: OpenGL to D3D. The version: 1.4
    Then I activated the classic Desktop theme en ran the application again. However the renderer was the same, no genuine OpenGL.
    Next step was to install the latest ATI drivers.
    As expected the OS refused to update because it found the drivers to be less suitable, after overriding this they installed just fine.
    After a restart and an other run of the app... Now I got normal ATI Hardware support (Renderer: RADEON 9800 Pro x86/MMX/3DNow!, version: 2.0.5220). Performance seemed ok too.
    Ofcourse I tried to enable Aero and see what happened. At first glance it looks the same however, all the "fancy" effects are gone (dissolving, tild, etc..)
    Conclusion seems to be that Vista in it's current state can have full OpenGL but not with fancy Vista. The install of a OpenGL ICD effectively disables Aero. Is that a bad thing?

  7. #37
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    Re: Call to Action: Ensure that OpenGL remains a first class API under Windows Vista

    I'm getting really angry about such things, because they're killing OpenGL , so people don't switch to other Operating Systems(because there won't be any games for it, or good visualation software).

  8. #38
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    Re: Call to Action: Ensure that OpenGL remains a first class API under Windows Vista

    OpenGL is a hardware API and should not be a software emulation. We developed a large C++ library based on OpenGL so software emulation would be a huge problem for us. We need the speed !!!!
    Logic takes you from A to B, Imagination will take you anywhere.

  9. #39
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    Re: Call to Action: Ensure that OpenGL remains a first class API under Windows Vista

    It's very smart step from their point of view.

    1st: games like Neverwinter nights, UT, Doom3, Quakes, RTCW, F.E.A.R. and bunch of others use GL, and !!!crap!!! there are Linux/Mac OS ports. Moreover they are not going to run on X-box, at least if MS don't force devs to write DX engine (Doom3 etc. case)

    2nd: PS3 is more friendly to GL, why not make GL undesireble platform for PC devs, so that there are no ports to PS3 later???

  10. #40
    Junior Member Regular Contributor execom_rt's Avatar
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    Re: Call to Action: Ensure that OpenGL remains a first class API under Windows Vista

    Originally posted by Treesong:

    The renderer string gave: OpenGL to D3D. The version: 1.4
    Could try this app : http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/ and gives the full OpenGL report (if it doesn't breach your NDA). This might interest other people, and try to run the rendering tests provided by the application.

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