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krol
10-03-2002, 06:33 AM
Hello everyone

I have the following problem: I'm drawing a simple cube. All lighting setings are appropriate (shading is corect) but when I enable texturing shade disappears!! Does anyone know what could by reason of it??

Marcin

MichaelK
10-03-2002, 06:42 AM
A czy twoja karta sprzetowo wspiera tekstury 3d?

krol
10-03-2002, 06:49 AM
jak milo - polski akcent!! Pracuje na SGI i mam wsparcie w postaci GL_TEXTURE_3D_EXT. Tekstura nakladana jest prawidlowo niestety niknie cien - nie moge znalezc przyczyny. Swiatlo jest wlaczone. Wyglada to tak jakbym nie mial wlaczonych normalnych lub swiatlo bylo wylaczone ale to na pewno nie to!!:-((
Pozdrawiam

KRONOS
10-03-2002, 07:19 AM
OK, já que é assim, também me ponho a falar português. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif Alguém percebe o que escrevo? Julgo que não, mas se perceberem, escrevam...
Vou escrever coisas técnicas, tipo GL, para parecer que estou a dizer mesmo algo...

davepermen
10-03-2002, 07:23 AM
gopferdelli, chöne der nid normal schnurre, des verstoht jo kä sau. potz tuusig nonemol. einewäg, es chönt ganz banal an glTexEnv ligge, da weisi natürli nöd, sötsch vilich e paar code snippets zeige, wade genau machsch und wade genau willsch. aber i glaub eh nöd das mi würkli gross verstosch, odr?

PH
10-03-2002, 07:27 AM
aber i glaub eh nöd das mi würkli gross verstosch, odr?


Well, I can *almost* guess what you wrote.

kon
10-03-2002, 07:48 AM
Who changed the language?
Dave, i verschtos und du häsch glob recht. Er söt's uf GL_MODULATE setze.

kon

Bruno
10-03-2002, 08:49 AM
Kronos., por acaso até percebo... lol
Realmente, falar de coisas técnicals como GL, ou 800x600 dá para confundir o pessoal, também se pode meter umas marcas, para a confusão ser maior, ATI ou NVidia... http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

davepermen
10-03-2002, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by PH:
Well, I can *almost* guess what you wrote.

so guess http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif


Originally posted by kon:
Dave, i verschtos und du häsch glob recht. Er söt's uf GL_MODULATE setze.

so geil, wohär chunsch? ich bi usem schöne baselbiet, grad am rih...

SirKnight
10-03-2002, 12:03 PM
Ich mag OpenGL, und du? http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif Ph33r my german skillz. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

-SirKnight

davepermen
10-03-2002, 12:21 PM
hehe, grossartig sirknight. vor allem, da der satz sogar auch gültiges schweizerdeutsch ist. das isch sälte, das en dütsche satz glich idr schwiz isch..

kon wo stecksch? pensch aber nöd öppe scho?!

SirKnight
10-03-2002, 01:30 PM
All I can gather from what you just said Dave is that you're speaking the swiss dialect or whatever of deutsch (german for us english speakers http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif). I'm taking German at my university now and while I really suck at it, I can see that it looks quite a bit different than the swiss dialect your using. hehe http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

-SirKnight

PH
10-03-2002, 02:08 PM
I'm taking German at my university now and while I really suck at it


Why would you go through all that pain http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif. I thought you would have taken more math/CS related courses...

PH
10-03-2002, 02:11 PM
kon wo stecksch?


I'm guessing at "do you understand ?".

KRONOS
10-03-2002, 03:43 PM
Bruno, temos de nos juntar.... Só dois a falar português?! Não pode ser... És donde?
Temos de começar a por aqui palavreado para o pessoal pensar que somos mesmos bons (??!!) nisto... http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif Acho que já troquei mail contigo, não?! Já não me lembro... Vou escrever glDisplacementMap(...) pro pessoal pensar muito nisto... E compilador GL2... Já chega, que achas?

Humus
10-03-2002, 03:54 PM
Kanske dags för lite svenska när vi ändå håller på? http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

SirKnight
10-03-2002, 04:13 PM
Why would you go through all that pain http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif. I thought you would have taken more math/CS related courses...


Well you see, for a degree here in the States we have to take all kinds of things, about half is stuff I could care less about. Including (for me) two semesters of a foreign language (both have to be the same language). What's required here for a degree is quite a bit different than in Europe. I have to take 2 years (4 semesters) of English classes, this wierd art class (omg how boring!), geography, etc etc. The thing that sucked about this semester is that since I have not taken Discrete Math I yet (i'm in it now), they would not no matter what let me take any more CS classes. I was like, common man, I have been through this stuff years before, I have taken calculus 1 through 3, what gives. Sigh. Once I finish Discrete I i'll get to take like 2 CS classes at the most I think. Untill I finish Discrete II I wont get to take any more than those 2 or whatever. Now a few of my CS classes I can take WHILE i'm in Discrete II though. It's crazy b/c a lot of the classes (probably about half or more) that I am denied right now I already know and could ace the course if I took it now if I could. But university rules. Bleh.

-SirKnight

MZ
10-03-2002, 07:28 PM
Eh, widzicie coscie narobili?!

BTW, Ich erlernte Deutsches in der Schule für 3 Jahre(!). Aber jetzt, nach 15 Jahren kann ich nicht sogar einzelnes Wort (sogar die Wörter, die ich jetzt schreibe), verstehen http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

Dan82181
10-03-2002, 09:13 PM
SirKnight,
Here's what I do when I need help translating what others are saying




...
if(babelfish->Translate("http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/Forum3/HTML/007576.html")=='\0') {
Dan82181->SaySomethingStupid(GL_TRUE);
Dan82181->LookStupid(GL_TRUE);
Dan82181->exit(-1);
} else {
Dan82181->LookCool(GL_TRUE);
Dan82181->ActCool(GL_TRUE);
Dan82181->exit(0);
}
...



The thread 0x3C4 has exited with code -1 (0xFFFFFFFF) http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

Also SirKnight, don't feel so bad, I'm stuck in the same boat. This semester I've got a DBMS class centered around Oracle8 and a data communications/networks class this semester, and the rest are all stuff like "The World Today" and "Ethnic Relations" and "World History, Origins to 1714". It's pretty funny, I jumped right in and took like 9 CS classes my first year because I thought all these classes would magically disappear if I didn't take them freshman year, guess I was wrong http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif What's going to kill me is that next semester, I have to take 7 CS courses that won't be offered again before I graduate http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/frown.gif

Oh, and are you going for your B.A. or your B.S., I'm after by B.S., and I don't have to take any foreign languages, but I think I would have to if I was getting my B.A.

Dan

davepermen
10-03-2002, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by PH:
I'm guessing at "do you understand ?".

actually, its "kon, where are you?"
you know, swiss is small... http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

SirKnight
10-04-2002, 04:36 AM
I'm going for my B.S. in CS. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif And I DO have to take foreign languages. I guess that requirement varies from state to state.

-SirKnight

Pedro
10-04-2002, 06:42 AM
Wow, Kronos e Bruno, mais dois portugueses!!!
Incrivel, pensei que fosse o único, uma vez que o 3d não está muinto desenvolvido por cá! Voces são de onde?

Sim, já agora: glDisplacementMaps(), assim dá a ideia que eu estava a participar na discução http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

V-man
10-04-2002, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by SirKnight:
I'm going for my B.S. in CS. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif And I DO have to take foreign languages. I guess that requirement varies from state to state.

-SirKnight

What does that have to do with CS? Any course outside of CS is or should be optional.

Well, let's hope the OP's question got answered somehow

V-man

Pedro
10-04-2002, 07:30 AM
I'm not sure if krol's question was answered, since I can't read most of it :-), but I'll give it a try anyway.


Originally posted by krol:
Hello everyone

I have the following problem: I'm drawing a simple cube. All lighting setings are appropriate (shading is corect) but when I enable texturing shade disappears!! Does anyone know what could by reason of it??

Marcin

Of the top of my head, there are two things that *might* be happening:

By default OpenGL will modulate (per-component multiply) the texture color with the color resulting from the illumination calculations. This is set using:



glTexEnvi(GL_TEXTURE_ENV,GL_TEXTURE_ENV_MODE,GL_MO DULATE);

If you forgot and changed it to something else, like:



glTexEnvi(GL_TEXTURE_ENV,GL_TEXTURE_ENV_MODE,GL_RE PLACE);

you might not get the result you are after (in this case illumination is ignored altogether).

Another common problem with lighting and textures is: imagine that you have a colored light (say red) and a blue texture. when modulating red and blue you always get black (1,0,0)*(0,0,1)==(0,0,0).

Or you can have a simpler bug in your code, for instance enabling lighting but not enabling any light.

If you're still having problems why don't you post a small code snippet?

--
Hope it helps
Pedro

SirKnight
10-04-2002, 07:39 AM
What does that have to do with CS? Any course outside of CS is or should be optional.


It has nothing to do with CS directly but like I say, to get a degree here in America a lot of other stuff that is not directly related to your field of study has to be taken. A lot of people in other countries (or even people here in America that dont understand) think that it's somehow stupid or pointless to have to take courses that is outside of the field of study. But in actuality, it's really a good idea (even though some of the courses will be boring or whatever) because these other courses teach you things that you will need to be able to know and do in the 'real world.' What also happens is that for us having to take all of these extra things, it makes the person with the degree more rounded. I remember quite a few years ago a teacher told us this and after a while I began to think about it more and more and it really makes sence. Now don't be thinking that i'm saying that by NOT doing this and just learning the things that are directly related to your field of study only is bad idea; not at all. I'm just saying why this is done basically in America. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

-SirKnight

[This message has been edited by SirKnight (edited 10-04-2002).]

Bruno
10-04-2002, 10:42 AM
Kronos.., não me lembro de ter trocado e-mails contigo, mas é possivel
Quanto ao Displacement mapping, acho que sim, que é uma boa ideia.. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif
Sou de Cascais, e vocês ?

SThomas
10-04-2002, 11:06 AM
i would just like to disagree 100,000% with Knight's position on being "well-rounded". for example, as a CS major at a school in the US, i'll have to take 3 humanities courses, 3 communications courses, 2 history courses, and 4 other "general education" electives, where general education means anything outside of CS, math, or the hard sciences (chem, physics, engineering, etc).

there is no justification for that nonsense. instead of that crap, i should be able to take extra math and CS courses, or start taking grad courses. or, for that matter, i should be able to just take all the CS and math courses i need, and graduate early.

the reason they pad the curriculum with so much garbage is a) to keep you there longer, and b) the liberal retards in the sociology/culture/communications departments telling school administrators that every student should have to take some of their crap courses. if they only required that i get done the CS and math requirements (the only stuff that is of any use at all), i'd be done in 3 years instead of 4, and the university would make less money.

honestly, how is knowing french (nothing against french here) or reading the communist manifesto going to improve your coding abilities?

V-Man: "What does that have to do with CS? Any course outside of CS is or should be optional."

i couldn't agree more.

josip
10-04-2002, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by SThomas:

V-Man: "What does that have to do with CS? Any course outside of CS is or should be optional."

i couldn't agree more.


I'm sorry, but SirKnight is right, IMHO. Getting a well-rounded education is what prepares you for life outside of computers. Though you don't think so now, you might change career paths in the future. I graduated as a nuclear engineer a couple of years ago (go UIUC) but am currently a software engineer. It'll expose you to topics you weren't previously exposed to, possibly leading you on a different course, like it did for me. Eighteen years old is too young to be certain about your life. You have a fighting chance at twenty-two. Man, I already feel old...

Graduate school is the time when you can let your major become your life http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif Anyway, taking all engineering classes seems like some sort of sadistic torture...

Sorry for being offtopic, but since the conversation went that way already... http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

bumby
10-04-2002, 12:02 PM
I agree with the SThomas on most of his points. I may be wrong, but I am under the impression that most people go to university in order to get a better job. I seriously doubt that any employer will be more willing to hire you knowing that you have taken a course in Subteranean Biology.(unless the employer is a Subteranean Biologist http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/cool.gif )

Why does a cs guy need to know about New York during the the victorian era(I HATE EDITH WHARTON http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/mad.gif ). Or why does a music student need to know calculus (although you have to admit the treble clef looks like an integral sign after a few beers http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif)
These damn courses are there purely to justify forcing people to spend 4 years and oodles of money. But, what are you gonna do.


You can get a better, more well rounded education by seeing the world, or even more of your own country. If you take about 30% bs courses, that is 30% of your tuition that you could have used to travel, learn a new language in another country, do something else. But you are not allowed to have this option (unless you drop out completely).

One could say that if people werent forced to take courses in different subjects, they would never learn those subjects.
Is it any better forcing you to take them. Of course not!!!You end up with a course full of people who care nothing for the subject, but just want to get a decent grade and get it over with. So it doesnt work anyway.

But if I had never had to take anthro-bum-f******, I would never have met my beautiful wife.

So I guess they do have there place.
J

p.s. ( I think that maybe i should have taken an English Grammer class http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/redface.gif )
[This message has been edited by bumby (edited 10-04-2002).]

[This message has been edited by bumby (edited 10-04-2002).]

[This message has been edited by bumby (edited 10-04-2002).]

SThomas
10-04-2002, 12:38 PM
bumby: "I HATE EDITH WHARTON"

haha, edith wharton... what a joke. as an american, i feel the need to apologize for the fact that she ever existed. i propose an amendment to the constitution which states that all the copies of her crappy books shall be gathered and burned. we'd be hailed as heroes by society.

[This message has been edited by SThomas (edited 10-04-2002).]

SirKnight
10-04-2002, 01:24 PM
Well to those who dissagree with me i'm sorry you feel that way but you're wrong. I guess you're just not old enough or experienced enough to really understand why we have to take courses that seem ridiculous. I know I thought that way once before, but if you stop taking it to litteral and look a litte deeper into the while thing, you should start to realize why all of these other courses are good to have. I guess the reason why I feel like this is from all the times some of my professors explained why taking all these courses that seem useless is The Right Thing. The biggest influence for me about all of this has to be this one history professor I had, Dr. Tijrena; this guy is freaking brilliant! Just 5 min talking to him and your mouth would be wide open thinking, omg this guy is a super genius. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif But anyway, the things he told us and how he described everything about this subject of taking all of these extra courses really made sence and set in. After that I really truly understand the point of all of this and I can see the indirect effects of these courses will have in my life from now on. Heh, now that I think about it, even the English Lit professor I have now was talking about this I think a week ago. So to those still think all of these extra "useless" classes are just that, useless, then please go speak with a few professors and let them explain it to you, or even some grad students who understand this.



for that matter, i should be able to just take all the CS and math courses i need, and graduate early.


Actually you can do that, it's called a Trade School. If you think all of these other classes that are required is useless and don't want to take them, then go to a trade school. Otherwise you really have no right to compain about doing all the extra work for a university degree. This is what the whole thing of 'higher learning' or 'higher education' or whatever you like to call it is about. Just learning a lot of math and programming is NOT higher learning. That would just simply be a trade. Get over it.

BTW, if I brought this post way off topic i'm sorry, sometimes I can get a little carried away. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

-SirKnight

[This message has been edited by SirKnight (edited 10-04-2002).]

SirKnight
10-04-2002, 01:33 PM
Anyway, taking all engineering classes seems like some sort of sadistic torture...


LOL! Ya I would have to agree on that. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif I'm glad you understand all of this though. Good to see others who are In The Know. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif Anyway, I think i'll step down off of my soapbox on this. I feel I have explained enough. Any more would just be repeating my self. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

-SirKnight

[This message has been edited by SirKnight (edited 10-04-2002).]

SThomas
10-04-2002, 02:37 PM
SirKnight: "Well to those who dissagree with me i'm sorry you feel that way but you're wrong."

hahaha, thanks for clearing that up for me man.

SirKnight: "If you think all of these other classes that are required is useless and don't want to take them, then go to a trade school."

they don't teach math/CS/computer graphics at trade schools. if they did, i would gladly go to one, and graduate in half the time, spend half as much money, and have more knowledge related to my fields of study. hmm... but then i wouldn't have any "higher thinking" abilities, and no employers would want to hire me. hahahah, what a joke.

josip
10-04-2002, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by SThomas:
but then i wouldn't have any "higher thinking" abilities, and no employers would want to hire me. hahahah, what a joke.

One analogy that comes to mind is weight training. No doubt one that we can all relate to http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif To properly train, you can't simply bench press all the time. You need to work on other (less glamorous) body parts, like your back (very important). If you want a strong, stable body, you need to address all of your body. Unless you'd like monstrous biceps w/ pathetic triceps (looks really bad) or a thick chest w/ weak shoulders.

Where am I going w/ this? Well, a strong, stable brain needs to be jostled in all sorts of ways. Topics like 19th Century Russian Literature (love it) get your brain working in ways that Calculus can't (and vice-versa). I think studying these other topics help me in my day-to-day workday when I need to solve problems quickly and in non-linear ways by giving me other avenues that my brain can traverse, looking for a solution. It makes me more creative as a whole, regardless of what I'm doing.

Boy, I feel like I'm in an interview and trying to pull something out of... But it's true, employers *DO* want a well-rounded employee. Well, that's what I gather from the two companies I've worked for so far.

I'm done w/ my soapbox as well. Here's hoping that I made any sense. It's the end of the day and this is the last thing I'm typing before heading home http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

SirKnight
10-04-2002, 05:10 PM
Very nice analogy josip, that made perfect sence. Plus being a lifter myself, I definatly relate to it. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

I guess we just wont get through to SThomas on this. But, the only way to understand this is to realize it yourself like I did. I hope you do realize it one day SThomas, if not I feel sorry for you for thinking this narrow minded. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/frown.gif Like they always say, 'think outside the box.'

-SirKnight

SirKnight
10-04-2002, 05:19 PM
HAHAHA! You know this is kind of funny in a way. This post started out about a question of doing lighting and a problem with the shading going kaput and it ended with a discussion about the kinds of classes needed for a degree. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif Comical I say!

-SirKnight

t0y
10-04-2002, 05:51 PM
Where I study most courses are CS/math related.

There's one catch though: since CS is such a broad subject most things we learn are very general. We don't become "experts" in anything without making our own research.

Something that really should be included is an English course. You won't believe how many people that study with me can't even read a technical CS book in english (which is an important thing).

Other things like history/politics/economics in a introductory level would really help developing our "brain muscles" (nice one josip http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif). I would definitely prefer them over some of my DBMS classes (arghhh). http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif


Kronos/Bruno/Pedro:

Podem acrescentar outro à lista http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif. Sou da Figueira da Foz e estudo em Coimbra.
É muito raro ver alguém escrever em português nestes forums e não ser brasileiro (também devem andar aí alguns).

Para não variar, concordo plenamente com essa proposta do glDisplacementMaps(), mas acho que a minha ATi Radeon não ia na conversa..... http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

SThomas
10-04-2002, 06:30 PM
josip: "One analogy that comes to mind is weight training."

damn josip, i like your analogy so much, i'm going to use it to further demonstrate my own point.

let's say my goal is to build huge ass muscles. how much time should i spend studying calculus to accomplish my objective?

certainly, studying calculus is worthwhile, but not for building big muscles. if i really want to get huge as fast as possible, i'll take the time i would have spent studying calculus, and instead lift weights, or doing some other exercises.

sirknight: "I guess we just wont get through to SThomas on this."

yeah, hopefully i'll be able to "think outside the box" and "broaden my horizons" some day. pray for my soul.

i'm actually interested in many things outside of programming, such as politics, literature, and sports. but i can pursue those interests on my own, in my free time. when i'm paying the university $60 an hour for instruction, i'd prefer that the instructors stick to the material that has a DIRECT impact on my chosen field of study. i guess that's just my ignorance and closemindedness speaking though. in the future, i'll try to think outside the box more.

V-man
10-04-2002, 07:16 PM
I guess you guys dont like SThomas's ideas, so let me put it this way:

The people in the government, police, *schools* and other agencies can basically be classified as people with power. Those people typically dont really produce a product. Their jobs are to make up policies. I think you understand where I'm getting at, so I'll stop there.

So if you're working on your BSc, you should be mature enough to decide what courses to take. Do you really need a mommy (the school board or whatever) to tell you what you need to do?

And I agree, beeing well rounded can be good. I was just surprised that he had to take language courses to get his degree (in America????).

V-man

josip
10-04-2002, 08:20 PM
Eh, it feels like Godfather III (right when I think I'm out...).

Large legs w/ no other body development will generate a rather freaky stature (think Popeye w/ the forearms moved to the thighs). Unless you want Olive Oil as a girlfriend, I'd work out the abs, chest, back, etc. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

You also can't cross over the analogy w/ the real world. Weight training vs. calculus wasn't the issue. It was all leg vs. overall condition and all calculus vs. calc./non-tech. You can concentrate on certain body parts, but you can't neglect all of the others as it'll be detrimental to the whole.

Anyway, I'll leave this topic as-is for fear of this turning into an episode of "Crossfire" http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

bumby
10-04-2002, 11:31 PM
Ha ha,

I just worked out my beer drinkin arm for the last 6 hours...YEEEEEHAAAWWWW.....

Seriously though, someone back there said

"Anyway, taking all engineering classes seems like some sort of sadistic torture...
"

I also couldnt agree more, I got a bsc in Civil Engineering back in the early 90's....man oh man.....

The only thing I originally wanted to say is that there are other ways to "complete" your education.


So to tie in this off-topic rhetoric.....


"I have the following problem: I'm drawing a simple cube. All lighting setings are appropriate (shading is corect) but when I enable texturing shade disappears!! Does anyone know what could by reason of it??"

YOUR CUBE IS TOO SIMPLE DAMMIT!!!!
THINK OUTSIDE OF THE BOX!!!!!
ENLIGHTEN YOUR MIND!!!!!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

KRONOS
10-05-2002, 01:32 PM
Eu sou de Coimbra... Ehehehe.... glRaytrace().... esta foi boa não foi?! Ou glDrawQ3Map()..... http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif lol

krol
10-06-2002, 11:52 PM
Hi

Thanks for answer. It has helped.

best regards
Marcin

kon
10-07-2002, 12:14 AM
Hoi Dave, sorry i bi di lätschte Täg unterwegs gsi und ha kein Netzaschluss gha! Schaffe übirgens z'Züri bi aber vo Sangalle!
Da isch wieder emol eini vo däne sinnvolle Diskussione!

Grues
kon