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angryGLfan
03-10-2002, 09:04 AM
I have been scouring the web for a few months now, slowly trying to teach myself OpenGL. And I've come to an astonishing conclusion when it comes to the forums here.

Most people who post here are jerks.

Of course not all. Some people just want some help programming, not some angry forum rhetoric about how double posting is bad or to get a finger shook at them for not doing enough research before posting on the board. The boards are here to help people, not to bully beginners. If you don't like someone's post, leave them alone if you're not willing to help.

Damon
03-10-2002, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by angryGLfan:
I have been scouring the web for a few months now, slowly trying to teach myself OpenGL. And I've come to an astonishing conclusion when it comes to the forums here.

Most people who post here are jerks.

Of course not all. Some people just want some help programming, not some angry forum rhetoric about how double posting is bad or to get a finger shook at them for not doing enough research before posting on the board. The boards are here to help people, not to bully beginners. If you don't like someone's post, leave them alone if you're not willing to help.

Jeez, we've been through this before. Please post comments like this to the beginner's forum.

Moron.

angryGLfan
03-10-2002, 09:11 AM
Exactly.

Dodger
03-10-2002, 09:26 AM
I think he was being ironic...

Well, in the end it's everyones choice if they want to be helpful or not, and if they want to be polite or not. Even if you don't want to be helpful, you can still be polite or friendly about it - but that's a personal choice everybody is making. Personally I think, that some people would do good to remember that they too had to start somewhere, most likely with somebody else's help http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

Lighthouse
03-10-2002, 09:30 AM
I like to think I flame for a good reason. However, I could rightfully be accused of feeding the trolls.

I do think that this forum needs moderators. If we don't introduce moderation, this forum will turn into a cesspool of (obviously) stupid and off topic posts. I recall that I was once flamed for flaming some retard who asked how to install the Nvidia OpenGL SDK! We need to be significantly less liberal if the forum is to be kept clear of egregious posts.

[This message has been edited by Lighthouse (edited 03-10-2002).]

davepermen
03-10-2002, 09:44 AM
double posting _IS_ bad
it means that more people think about the same solution that others found yet in the other forum..
and its annoying to see the same posts her in gl.org,there on flipcode and dont forget the neheforum..

and i think i'm allowed to say my dislikes because i always try to help where i'm good in (mostly perpixellighting stuff and math..)

i give my best to never flame those people. but anyways, its annoying to see newby-questions here in, and crossposts..

knackered
03-10-2002, 09:54 AM
There is a beginners forum, you won't get 'flamed' there.

The pattern for beginners (and advanced) posts should be (IMHO):-
1) I've read lots of books/docs on linear algebra and 3d graphics.
2) I've read the opengl specs.
3) I've seached using google, and google groups, for the answer.
4) I've searched this forum for the answer, using its built in search mechanism.
5) I've posted the question on the beginners forum, but nobody has been able to give me a satisfactory answer.

Then, and only then, should you consider posting it on the advanced opengl forum.
Otherwise, you are wasting everybodies time.
Why do you want a personal reply to your very specific question?
I've usually got lots of commercial work to do, and the reason I take some time to look at this forum is because I may glean some useful information out of replies, and I may be able to help someone else with a problem that I may have struggled with.
But recently, most of the questions have been from lazy, braindead gits like you - which pisses me off, because other, more advanced posts, get pushed off the bottom of the first page.

angryGLfan
03-10-2002, 10:30 AM
I'm glad to see that some of you have actually taken my post seriously. But biggoted responses like calling me a 'lazy braindead git' is a bit much. You say we waste your precious time? It sounds like you waste you're own by respoing.

P.S.
Heaven forbid you have to scroll to the end of the page.

rts
03-10-2002, 10:37 AM
Perhaps this (http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html) might be of some assistance. To wit:


Despite this, hackers have a reputation for meeting simple questions with what looks like hostility or arrogance. It sometimes looks like we're reflexively rude to newbies and the ignorant. But this isn't really true.

What we are, unapologetically, is hostile to people who seem to be unwilling to think or do their own homework before asking questions. People like that are time sinks — they take without giving back, they waste time we could have spent on another question more interesting and another person more worthy of an answer. We call people like this "losers" (and for historical reasons we sometimes spell it "lusers").

knackered
03-10-2002, 11:06 AM
I wouldn't call what I said "biggoted", not if you haven't the faintest idea what the word means.
But a lesson in English language shouldn't be at the top of your list of things to learn - more like a lesson in linear algebra (followed by a lesson in 'dignity', as you appear to have none), espcially if you're really that person who posted the question about how to get opengl to tell you if one plane is in front of another...

angryGLfan
03-10-2002, 11:24 AM
Your insults are useless. My dignity is strengthened by telling you how I feel. Yours is diminished by your mudslinging. I know linear algebra just fine, as well as I know my English. I used 'biggoted' in the sense that you call me braindead as if you understood what I was talking about. That was my first post on OpenlGL.org, and hopefully this is my last. If responding to questions wastes your time, then don't respond. I hope your level of tact exceeds your display in this forum.

MikeC
03-10-2002, 11:43 AM
The board is certainly a lot less tolerant than it used to be. That's unfortunate, but it's not surprising. The number of people using OpenGL has exploded as the price of good hardware has plummetted, and whenever boards get overcrowded, things start to get nastier.

TBH, most (not all) of the "intolerant" comments I see are justified. This is the Advanced OpenGL forum, and it *does* get a *lot* of posts that are neither advanced nor anything to do with OpenGL. Sure, there are grey areas, but the existence of grey does not disprove the existence of black and white. "How do I draw a triangle?" does not belong here. "OpenGL should do sound/collision detection/input/file handling" does not belong in Suggestions. And yet we see them over and over and over again.

I don't think anyone enjoys being harsh, but unless somebody is the board is just going to die. Off-topic posts *are* damaging. Beyond the obvious harm (people stop using a board once the signal-to-noise ratio drops below a certain point) there's a vicious circle going on. The Advanced board is now so swamped with fluff that wading through it becomes a full-time job. I remember the days when you could catch up on the Advanced board in a few minutes, then go browsing through Beginners for someone to lend a hand to. Not any more. So beginners learn that the only way to get answers is to mis-post to Advanced, meaning that a) they get flamed and b) the situation gets worse.

I absolutely do not buy your "If you don't like someone's post, leave them alone" argument. Not for a second. It's the same line you see on every piece of spam you get: if you're not interested in prestigious degrees from non-accredited universities, or transferring your loan, or making big $$$ from your own home, just hit Delete. So simple. So eminently reasonable. Until you realize that this junk is taking more time than your real mail, and it's killing the medium.

Korval
03-10-2002, 11:50 AM
Most people who post here are jerks.

No. People are only jerks to those who don't demonstrait an advanced knowledge of OpenGL. Remember, this is the "OpenGL Coding: Advanced" forum. You are expected to demonstrait certain aptitudes in OpenGL and 3D programming to post here.

And cross posting is silly. If you post in the beginner forum, and nobody responds after a day or so, then it may be beyond the nebulous realm of "beginner" and into the land of "advanced". But, posting both at the same time is just trying to take more than you are giving. Your question belongs in one of the two, not both.


If you don't like someone's post, leave them alone if you're not willing to help.

I, for one, can't stand it when someone doesn't capitalize letters properly. It improves readability by an order of magnitude. However, rather than admonishing them to capitalize next time, I simply refrain from dealing with them.

However, look at it from our point of view. All of us on the advanced forum already know OpenGL. Most of us have projects that deal very deeply with OpenGL, its extensions, lighting equations, and a large collection of other topics that are completely inappropriate for the beginner. There is a forum set aside specifically for those who are still learning the basics of OpenGL.

Us advanced people get something out of answer other advanced questions; we learn more. We don't get much out of answering beginner questions. Even having these questions on the advanced forum is a detriment to us, because it thins out the actually advanced questions. Finding a real question on a forum populated with beginner questions is simply a pain; one that we shouldn't have to put up with.

The only way to keep this forum for advanced questions is to admonish anyone who posts beginner questions or who crossposts to not do so. If these people are simply ignored, they may resort to multiple posts of that question or bumping their topics.

Now, being a jerk to preserve the "advancedness" of this forum is perfectly legitimate (I wouldn't even call it being a jerk; it's just doing what is necessary). Being a jerk just because, for example, you don't like VisualBasic and someone is trying to make an OpenGL binding for it, is an entirely different matter; that is inappropriate.

[This message has been edited by Korval (edited 03-10-2002).]

Zak McKrakem
03-10-2002, 11:58 AM
angryGLfan,

The fact here is that you, like many people that post off-topic questions here, don’t want to follow any rules but impose yours. This is an advanced OpenGL forum. And it should be enough. People like you is why forums like this needs some kind of moderator. When you read the name of this forum “OpenGL coding: advanced” you think “Bah, the rules are the ones I want and I want people that solves my problems because facing them, or using search, or using Google, or searching an appropriate forum is too much work for me”.
And you are angry because people don’t want to follow your rules but this forum ones: “Threads about OpenGL from people with ‘some’ experience”.
People that contributes in questions or threads that fit in this forum, and people that don’t want them to be lost in the middle of many off-topic, repeated, or beginners ones have reasons to complain about them.

Won
03-10-2002, 12:01 PM
It's about signal to noise ratio, really. A few years ago, when this forum was smaller, I found it a very useful tool. I learned alot from disucssions I read in the forums, and when there was a question I could answer, I was glad to "give back."

Unfortuntaly, in the past year or so I've noticed that this forum has been going seriously downhill. At best, it's a place to try to get your questions answered. However, if a majority of the posts are off-topic (yes, programming questions, questions about math, basic graphics questions are all off-topic in the Advanced OGL Coder's Forum), then it's impossible to use the forum as a tool to learn. It's too time-consuming to wade through worthess posts, and worthless topics. And that's really a pity, because this forum used to be so great.

The real problem is not that people are just too lazy and stupid to figure things out for themselves -- graphics is a difficult thing and we can't expect everyone to be Masters of the Pixel. But what gets me is when the answer is on the web somewhere (accessible via your favorite search engine), or worse ALREADY ANSWERED IN THIS FORUM! Argh.

The solution? It could be as simple as having more forums. Perhaps one on graphics programming, math, general graphics algorithms or graphics hardware (these seem to be the most frequent off-topic posts). And a meta-forum to discuss the forums (this topic would belong there, for example). Perhaps others, on vertex/fragment programming. Perhaps some FAQs, taken from the actual contests of this forum.

Hopefully, things will get better. They really couldn't get much worse.

-Won

richardve
03-10-2002, 12:08 PM
I certainly don't enjoy flaming people.

But I also don't enjoy the thought that this place could be transformed to the second gamedev.net

People are coming here for only one thing: OpenGL, either beginners or more advanced persons.
But when they come here, they find topics like these:

"[OT] this"
"[OT] that"
"If any one having polytrans v2 for max ..."
"Plzzzzz, I want it ..."
etc.

And many people (usually starters) don't even _try_ to do a GoogleSearch or the one at this board before posting a question.

Heck, it even happens that there are 2 following threads about the same topic!
I think that's enough prove that some people don't try to do some research by themselves.

And of course, the almighty "How to render sound with OpenGL?" or "How do I know which keys are pressed when using OpenGL?"..
People, when learning an API, you should always first learn what the name of that API means.

Oh and why do you post anonymously?


Greetings,
F. Lamer


[This message has been edited by richardve (edited 03-10-2002).]

Jambolo
03-10-2002, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by angryGLfan:
Your insults are useless. My dignity is strengthened by telling you how I feel. Yours is diminished by your mudslinging. I know linear algebra just fine, as well as I know my English. I used 'biggoted' in the sense that you call me braindead as if you understood what I was talking about. That was my first post on OpenlGL.org, and hopefully this is my last. If responding to questions wastes your time, then don't respond. I hope your level of tact exceeds your display in this forum.

It takes (at least) two to have a flame war. You are just as guilty as Knackered here, doing exactly what you are complaining about. It appears to me now that you started this topic just looking for a fight and not really wanting to contribute at all.

The reasonable and most effective response to a flame is to ignore it.

I agree that people that ask stupid questions (that would take 5 minutes of research to find an answer), post completely off-topic questions (e.g. "[OT] C++, fstream"), or ask me to sift through 200 lines of badly-written unformatted code to find a bug are leeches and have no intention of ever learning and contributing.

However, the reasonable and most effective response to these people is not a flame. A flame is nothing more than an off-topic temper tantrum, and no better than the post being flamed. The reasonable and most effective response to a leech is a single short polite reply explaining how the post does not belong.

Humus
03-10-2002, 01:14 PM
My opinions are very much in line with what most of you guys said, especially I think that MikeC said it really well. However, I still think angryGLfan has a point (which though could have been expressed better). I've noticed myself that this forum has changed attitude a lot recently, we're talking about the latest two or three weeks. Yes, the number of OT posts the latest weeks have been much more than usual, but I've mostly noticed that the number of flames have increased even more. Not only do the off topic posting guy get flamed at the first reply in the thread, but he contineously gets redicouled by lots of consecutive posters. Personally I try to keep out of those threads and if someone else have notified the OT poster that his post is OT, then I don't see any reason to post another reply telling him that his post is OT and that he's stupid. You can handle OT questions in good or bad manner.

Example:
Someone posts in advanced forum, "How do I find which of two planes are in front of the other?".

Note, the guy may not realize himself that this is offtopic. It is 3d related, and he is using opengl, thus he will just feel this forum is good to post in without further thought. It's not strictly opengl, it's maybe not "advanced", but what's advanced is subjective, he maybe thinks it's advanced and doesn't realize that the solution lies in simle linear algebra.

So, a bad reply:
"Why do you post this kind of question in the advanced forum? It's completely off topic. This is a forums for advanced opengl questions, not about simple linear math."

How I would have replied:
"I don't think this forum is the most appropriate for a question like this, but if you're looking for a depth sorting algorithm you may want to look into BSP trees."

Note that neither of the replies took significantly more time to write, I gave him a starting point for further investigation.

I do think that (besides less aggressive replies to offtopic questions) additional forums should be added as Won suggested, like
* General programming
* General 3d and algorithms
* Math
* 3D Hardware
* 3D Software
etc.

LordKronos
03-10-2002, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by richardve:
But I also don't enjoy the thought that this place could be transformed to the second gamedev.net

Hey, thats not funny. I just pray Nicole Poster never shows up here. But I do know what you mean. About the only forum there I ever visit anymore is the business forum (and I often read a few of the newest posts listed on the home page). The rest are hardly worth the time.

angryGLfan
03-10-2002, 02:12 PM
I'm certainly impressed with the response I've gotten with my post. I'm actually quite greatful. I'm a beginner; I admit. But I'm becoming interested in more advanced toppics so I journey to the "Advanced Forum" to see what it has to offer. I was just disappointed to see how many people are shunned out of it. But Jambolo and Humus have restored my faith in Human-kind. Being 'advanced' is subjective. If you're a beginner, then everything is 'advanced'. I've never posted on any OpenGL.org forum before this and I probably never will again. I like books better than people. I'm surprised to see how serious people are forum ediquite, and I am sorry for posting such an off topic. But it just seems so disappointing to push people aside simply because they're beginners. I'm a new comer to OpenGL, but not to programming. I always encourage questions from strangers or friends no matter how dumb or simple it may seem to me. And I certainly wouldn't call someone a 'braindead git' because I didn't like their question. How about a point in the right direction? "Try a google search." or "Try the Beginner Forum." instead of calling them a moron. To Zak McKrakem: it's not the rules that I was concerned about; I don't put myself on a pedestal. I just don't understand how people are so unwilling to help. If you guys don't want these questions on the board, point the people who post them to the information they want and maybe they won't need your help anymore: hence, they won't post here. And to the guy that complained about my use capitalization: come on, buddy. That's the kind of crap I'm talking about. I'm sure you understood what I was trying to say without capitalized letters. The only point I was trying to make was:

Stop complaining about other people, and lend your fellow man a hand.

If everyone is so interested in OpenGL and it's developement, why aren't you interested in the spread of it's use?

I no that my 'flame' is no different to anyone elses flame, but mean people suck.

Sorry again for off topic material.

MikeC
03-10-2002, 02:19 PM
I'm starting to think that a moderated Advanced forum would be a good thing, and not just to block spam and off-topic posts.

Moderated forums tend to have a quite a long delay between the time you submit a post and the time it actually appears. The good thing about that it that the forum ceases to be seen as a quick panacea - if you know you're not going to get a response for several hours, you're much more likely to try alternatives like Google or the Beginners forum. It tends to limit posts to problems that really *can't* be solved anywhere else.

It also encourages people to phrase their questions as clearly as possible, to reduce read-modify-write cycles. I get very annoyed by vague one-line questions couched in the poster's own private jargon, where they clearly couldn't be bothered to spend more than 10 seconds asking the question, but expect someone to spend half an hour deciphering it and addressing each of the possible interpretations. Today's "OpenGL Corruption?" thread is a great example of how questions *should* be asked - clear, detailed, with demonstrations and notes and context - but many people won't put this effort in without encouragement.

The downside of moderated boards is that, because of the timelag, easy questions tend to get answered by a string of 20 identical replies before the first one becomes visible. You see this a lot on forums like comp.lang.c++.moderated. Combined with a moderation block on "easy" questions, though, this shouldn't be too much of an issue.

And we *desperately* need a FAQ, clearly linked to from *every* page.

Zak McKrakem
03-10-2002, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Humus:
How I would have replied:
"I don't think this forum is the most appropriate for a question like this, but if you're looking for a depth sorting algorithm you may want to look into BSP trees."

Note that neither of the replies took significantly more time to write, I gave him a starting point for further investigation.

I do think that (besides less aggressive replies to offtopic questions) additional forums should be added as Won suggested, like
* General programming
* General 3d and algorithms
* Math
* 3D Hardware
* 3D Software
etc.

I don't agree with you. If you answer his question, or just give him a hint, he will put a new off topic question every time he wants. He will ignore the first part of the sentence “I don't think this forum is the most appropriate for a question like this…” the same way he is ignoring that this is an OpenGL coding advanced forum.
Same way, there are some forums, mailing lists, newsgroups about general programming, algorithms, maths, … Many times, people have included links to them the same way they have suggested using google.
I propose another ‘constructive’ way of solving the increasing problem of off-topics, beginners, etc. It is to create a common answer to those people. Something like:
“This is an OpenGL advanced coding forum. Your question is more suitable to other forums http://www.flipcode.com/forums http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithms-list http://www.midnightryder.com/article.php3?story_id=148
You can also try this FAQs, info and tutorials. http://nehe.gamedev.net/opengl1.asp http://www.realtimerendering.com
comp.graphics.algorithms FAQ
...
And put it as the ONLY answer to those threads/questions.
We can create a thread to create this answer so the people can suggest a small list of links to include. (And create it by someone that writes good English, not like me).
What do you think?

knackered
03-10-2002, 02:39 PM
Sorry for calling you braindead. You must be lazy. I'm now involved in an argument that I don't have time to be involved in, and may be considered juvenile...but I can't resist.

Now, I have to admit that the responses I gave to the guy with the "plane in front of plane" question (titled "Z-buffer", which just begs to be clicked, don't you think?) got a little aggressive after a while - it's just that using hardware to solve a problem should be the last resort, and I remember when we wouldn't have even considered it as a solution, in the days of software rasterizers.
Maybe a better response to these posts would be to tell people to title the topics in a more thoughtful way - I mean "Z-buffer" is going to waste a lot of peoples time, as its very general.

Zak McKrakem
03-10-2002, 02:45 PM
AngryGLFan,
You are doing it again. You are looking from your perspective and not from this forum one. “just don't understand how people are so unwilling to help” And, what about you? Do you think you and other people with beginners, off-topic and repeated questions are helping this forum?
“If you guys don't want these questions on the board, point the people who post them to the information they want and maybe they won't need your help anymore”. Do you think it? Or do they come back to ask more off-topic questions?
“But Jambolo and Humus have restored my faith in Human-kind… If everyone is so interested in OpenGL and it's developement, why aren't you interested in the spread of it's use? … Stop complaining about other people, and lend your fellow man a hand…” You use too much demagoguery.

Nutty
03-10-2002, 03:05 PM
I agree there is alot of non opengl posts going on in here recently. Just looking at the list now, the number of OT posts is huge.

Thats why I feel my presence here is diminishing quickly, as I just can't be bothered wading through all the crap to find interesting stuff on OpenGL.

It's quite saddening that ppl can't be arsed to try and sort something out for themselves. THAT _IS_ what programming is! Solving problems with an implementation!

But nowadays ppl just want someone to do everything for them, and to cut n paste the answer into their code.

I think a moderated board would be very good. Perhaps vote on certain frequent contributers, and perhaps give them privelages to remove OT posts. I dont want a situation where posts need to approved 1st, as this would take alot of time, and would tie up someones precious time un-neccasarily.

Plus I enjoy the fact that ppl _do_ respond quickly on here.

But someone with the power to delete OT posts and extremly beginners questions might be good. It would surely discourage the posting of crap knowing your post would probably get deleted.

Provided of course, that the power is used wisely, and they dont go deleting anything _they_ deem OT and too simple, when it might be valid.

What does anyone else think?

Nutty

Shag
03-10-2002, 03:29 PM
I'm gobsmacked this post has received this much attention!

I assume everyone else has a smile on there face while reading the nonesense that's been said so far. Perhaps the words 'Frequent Contributor' should be changed to 'Get A Life'. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

Anyway ... we all get annoyed with extremely inappropriate topics. How many of you have jumped to google, typed a couple of keywords from a post, and pasted a URL back in here? Most I'd imagine. And it's downright ludicrous to have to do that. BUT, if it stops a thread in it's tracks maybe it's a worthwhile thing.

As to the idea of turning this into a moderated forum ... that sucks - the beauty of this forum is that generally you get very quick, informative, replies. This gives it a certain personal touch, which is worth keeping.

Maybe designating a few moderators with the power to delete cross posts, or move posts to the appropriate forum wouldn't be such a bad idea though.

EDIT - Just to keep it kind of on (off) topic.

AngryGLfan ... this is actually an extremely helpful forum - by far the best. All that is asked is that you respect what it stands for. No more, no less. And you're original post really didn't do you any favours. You claimed that was your first post - so how in the hell do you know so much about the attitude of people in here?

Regards

PS ... a moderator would have to allow the occasional little gem to stay ... such as 'game download', posted by wf http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Shag (edited 03-10-2002).]

Rob The Bloke
03-10-2002, 04:58 PM
AngryGL Fan, Please understand that cross-posting IS annoying. I often check out the beginners forum first to sort out some answers to people who are struggling, but when you then go to the advanced forum to see exactly the same question you've just answered, posted there as well, it starts to get on your nerves.

The worst thing that then happens is when they ask a silly question, and get an answer that doesn't sort out their troubles, they then decide to post again on both forums. Why? Whats the point in starting numerous threads when one would have done? If your question wasn't fully answered the first time, re-post to the same thread and elaborate on the problem. Chances are it will be solved quickly and easily whilst giving you more knowledge on the subject than you had expected.

Starting numerous threads implies impatience, one of the worst characteristics for a programmer. A good programmer should never get upset at any problem, it should only become a bigger challenge for you to overcome - It is the way that you learn!

You can immediately tell if someone is not willing to take a small amount of time and effort to research and understand a problem.

You wouldn't ask a car mechanic how to open the boot of your car (trunk to the americans) without first attempting to find it on your own. Asking him 4 times in a row is not going to make him answer quicker, it's only prone to making him quite annoyed to the point that he either throws some verbal abuse in your direction, or doesn't answer at all. The same applies to a seasoned programmer....

angryGLfan
03-10-2002, 06:48 PM
Zak McKrakem:
You're right. I am doing it again. But this post is helping the forum. Look at all the (positive) responses it's gotten. And as far as all the 'demagoguery', it's just how I feel. I generally don't like people; that's probably why I enjoy programming so much. That's why I said that those two had "restored my faith in Human-kind", because most of the time I have no faith in Humans.

Shag:
Simply because that was my first post doesn't mean that I don't look around the forums. I admit that I'm not a seasoned veterans of these forums, but, more often than not, the replies I've seen have been rather negetive.

I don't mean to sound silly, but I'm actually proud of everyone who has replied to my post. Even the people who flamed me at first posted again with reasonable responses. Not only reasonable, but helpful.
I've begun to feel that my original post was a little hasteful. Not that I didn't mean what I said, but because I didn't understand the semantics of forums. I apologize again for the off topic, but I just found that behavior completely frustrating. But many of you have explained, in a reasonable manner, why these things are frustrating to you and even provided suggestions. That, to me, is fantastic. I feel that my point was made and actually considered. I admit that my posting has absolutely nothing to do with OpenGL, or even forum ediquite in general. I sometimes have a problem NOT helping people, and it often irritates me when people not only don't want to help, but feel threatened at the very concept (I say this not to continue flaming, just to continue to explain myself). I had promised myself that I wouldn't post further, but I couldn't help myself. I am very greatful at the level of response, and I hope at least a few people actually take a few more positive approaches than I've seen before.

Well, I'm starting to says things that even I want to beat people up for. So maybe I should stop. Thanks again for the response, it's actually been quite uplifting.

P.S.
One beginner question and then I'm off to the beginner forums (I promise. You guys won't see me until I have a graphics card that isn't 5 yrs. old). What's all this talk about google? Do you just mean google.com? And if so, any particular area within the site? I've been there, and it just seems like another search engine to me.

Thanks,

happyGLfan

zeckensack
03-10-2002, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by Korval:
Being a jerk just because, for example, you don't like VisualBasic and someone is trying to make an OpenGL binding for it, is an entirely different matter; that is inappropriate.

That was me, I guess. But don't forget that this somebody also posted the same question four times under different names, on both the beginners and the advanced boards. Make that eight threads. That's annoying. The same question has in the meantime popped up on the 'Suggestions for the next release of OpenGL' board. Even more annoying. Apart from the occasional expression of my personal attitude towards using VB for 3D graphics programming, I gave out suggestions to solving the problem, heck, I even got a few "thank you"s out of that so it can't be that bad. But lately, after the sheer amount of multiple threads I started to get the impression that this somebody doesn't quite understand that OpenGL writing stuff to memory and VB interpreting the data are two distinct things. And it's seriously challenging to me, to say the least, to deal with that kind of stuff here without ticking off.

richardve
03-10-2002, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by angryGLfan:
One beginner question and then I'm off to the beginner forums (I promise. You guys won't see me until I have a graphics card that isn't 5 yrs. old). What's all this talk about google? Do you just mean google.com? And if so, any particular area within the site? I've been there, and it just seems like another search engine to me.



Yes, we mean www.google.com (http://www.google.com)

And Google is not just 'another search engine' http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif
The allmighty Google gives you everything what _you_ are searching for, not a few sh!tty advertised links and more or less usable links at the end of the page(s).

Just try it, and discover that you can virtually find _anything_ with Google http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

Google rulez, not only for OpenGL stuff, but for anything you're searching for.
You can even search on a specific website with Google.

Another great feature of Google are it's cached links (little 'cache' word under every link)
When a website, document or whatever doesn't exist anymore, you can just browse the cached link!
Personally, I just LOVE this feature, really.
Also, you can view Word DOC and PDF files straight from Google by pressing the 'HTML version' link.. Cool!

If you're looking for more help with Google, you could have a look at the Google Help Pages (tm) which you can find by going to the Google Sewch Tips, uh-hah-hah-hah (http://www.google.com/intl/xx-elmer/help.html) (sorry, about the uh-hah-hah-hah, that's just my default language when using Google http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif )




[This message has been edited by richardve (edited 03-10-2002).]

davepermen
03-10-2002, 11:21 PM
yeah. TRY GOOGLE
its really THE source for any math/programming/physics-problem EXISTING..

and.. learn to know the other pages..
most of the google-links about math-topics (related to 3d) points to information on flipcode for example..

you can have google in ie as toolbar so you can use it whenever you don't know something.. 90% of the stuff i needed during last months i've found in google.. for school, for programming, for math, for whattheheck http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

robert
03-11-2002, 12:02 AM
Hey you forgot to mention the language preferences of Google! http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif.. Complete with pig latin, 1337, Klingon and even Elmer Fudd!!..


On a serious note.. How hard would it be to add some sort of voting functionality? So you need X number of votes for it to be deemed as off-topic and then gets put into a OffTopic forum for a couple of days?

knackered
03-11-2002, 12:17 AM
Anyone see Eastenders last week?

Zak McKrakem
03-11-2002, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by Nutty:
I think a moderated board would be very good. Perhaps vote on certain frequent contributers, and perhaps give them privelages to remove OT posts. I dont want a situation where posts need to approved 1st, as this would take alot of time, and would tie up someones precious time un-neccasarily.

...

Provided of course, that the power is used wisely, and they dont go deleting anything _they_ deem OT and too simple, when it might be valid.

What does anyone else think?

Nutty

I think it would be good. But, how can we select a couple of people to do it? First, they should be volunteers and then we need to know that they are good to do it. And them, the web owner (OpenGL ARB?) should allow them to do it.
Can you try to get in contact with him/them to see what they think? Probably, they have something to say.

Shag
03-11-2002, 12:24 AM
Mk II Escort for sale

50,000 miles. as new. £2,500 ono

No time wasters.

robert
03-11-2002, 01:14 AM
Ha oops im sorry, i must have missed Nutty's post about the voting http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/redface.gif

richardve
03-11-2002, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by robert:
Hey you forgot to mention the language preferences of Google! http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif.. Complete with pig latin, 1337, Klingon and even Elmer Fudd!!..

[friendly hugmode]

Hi robert,

If you would have taken a little more of your precious time to read my previous post you would have noticed that I already told him about the Google languages http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

Bye!

[/friendly hugmode]

Eric
03-11-2002, 01:35 AM
I don't want to add to the debate about OT posts. Suffice to say that I agree with most of the "Frequent Contributors" who expressed their views.

On the matter of having one or more (that's probably better !) moderators (to move/delete posts, NOT approve them in the first place !), I think this is a really good idea: shouldn't we contact the webmaster to ask whether this is possible (coz' he might just say "go away" and then there's no point debating the idea !) ?

If this happens, I just hope that before deleting something, the moderators will talk between themselves to make sure that this is a wise move...

Anyway, thanks for your topic angryGLfan
(it could push things forward a bit http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif).

Regards.

Eric

richardve
03-11-2002, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by Zak McKrakem:
I think it would be good. But, how can we select a couple of people to do it? First, they should be volunteers and then we need to know that they are good to do it. And them, the web owner (OpenGL ARB?) should allow them to do it.
Can you try to get in contact with him/them to see what they think? Probably, they have something to say.

Volunteers are no problem.

[friendly hugmode]

And if you had taken some friendly time to watch the front page, all the way down, you could have seen the one and only email for sending questions and other friendly stuff about this site: webmaster@opengl.org

[/friendly hugmode]

(ehm.. and just for the record.. I am NOT gay, as some of you might think after reading my replies from today http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif)

knackered
03-11-2002, 01:37 AM
Google is *not* advanced opengl. The specs for google are freely available on the web - use a seach engine such as dogpile to find them.
Now back to my question on register combiners....just what exactly *is* "Per-pixel bumpmapping"? Describe in words, without pictures (ascii or non-ascii) please.

robert
03-11-2002, 01:55 AM
[friendly hugmode]

Hi robert,

If you would have taken a little more of your precious time to read my previous post you would have noticed that I already told him about the Google languages

Bye!

[/friendly hugmode]



I'm having a bad day, lol http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/eek.gif

zeckensack
03-11-2002, 02:10 AM
Originally posted by Eric:
On the matter of having one or more (that's probably better !) moderators (to move/delete posts, NOT approve them in the first place !), I think this is a really good ideaWe would need some support from a completely different site for this, say, cprogramming.com, dontchathink? Some threads would have to be moved faaar away.

Eric
03-11-2002, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by zeckensack:
We would need some support from a completely different site for this, say, cprogramming.com, dontchathink? Some threads would have to be moved faaar away.

I would like to have such forums here but that's definitely not their place (unless www.opengl.org (http://www.opengl.org) is ready to do that !)....

In my opinion, if a post is thought to be OT (i.e. not belonging to ANY of the forums here) by moderators, it should be deleted and perhaps the poster should be told by e-mail (if they don't give their e-mail in their profile, that's their problem).

If a post would be more appropriate in another forum, then it should be moved there and possibly the poster should be advised.

That's how I see a possible moderated forum.

Now, I would prefer not having any need for moderating the forums but that does not seem to be an option anymore...

Regards.

Eric

P.S.: I just sent an e-mail to "boardmaster@opengl.org" to see if they had any opinion on this topic (I just asked them to read this thread).

[This message has been edited by Eric (edited 03-11-2002).]

Eric
03-11-2002, 06:12 AM
OK, got an answer from the boardmaster and although we won't see moderated forums, he is preparing something that should make our lives easier.

I won't go into details because I suppose he'll post the information himself when everything is ready ("in the next few days" according to him).

Regards.

Eric

angryGLfan
03-11-2002, 07:14 AM
Thanks again for all the Google info.

I'm goin' to the movies today, anybody wanna come?

Eric
03-11-2002, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by angryGLfan:
Thanks again for all the Google info.

I'm goin' to the movies today, anybody wanna come?

I think you made your point so I can't see why you keep posting that kind of message...

One thing that surprised me is that your name/e-mail/activities are not available in your profile. Were you frightened of people contacting you directly or did you just not bother (that really is a question, not an attack) ?

No for the movies: I'd like to come but don't know where you live (hence the profile question) so I am not sure if I can make it in time...

What are you planning to see ?

Regards.

Eric

03-11-2002, 07:55 AM
Suggestions for new forum topics
We are trying to determine a list of new forums that would be helpful to steer beginning coders to the appropriate buckets.

For beginning coding forums we have:
General Programming Questions
General 3D & Graphics Algorithms
3D, Matrix, & Vector Math
Basic OpenGL "how do I do this"
3D Hardware & Extensions

Any other recommendations?

Also if we were to break down the Advanced Coding forums into more refined buckets, what would be the desired topic areas?

Thanks. We would like to get these modified forums up in the next few days so please post your suggestions soon.



[This message has been edited by boardmaster (edited 03-11-2002).]

Eric
03-11-2002, 08:07 AM
One thing that comes to mind is that all those topics could be either for beginners or advanced persons (if you except the explicit "Basic OpenGL").

Hence, I am not too sure whether you should label these new forums as "beginners" coding forums.

Another question is: will the "Basic OpenGL" replace the "beginners" forum or will it be like a "FAQ" forum that beginners should check before posting ?

I'll throw some ideas I had during the past few weeks:

1) Shouldn't you require people to register before being able to post ?
2) If we want 1) to make sense, we should require a valid e-mail address from the contributors.
3) The problem with 2) is spam: some applications scan forums to get e-mail addresses and build huge e-mail lists. To avoid that, ppl usually add "antispam" in their e-mail address but they cannot do that with my proposal in 2). Hence, is it possible to hide the e-mail address if people want to ? Or could there be a public e-mail address that appears in the profile (where people could add the "antispam" thingy) ?
4) For people who actually start with the forums (say the first 20 posts ?), would it be possible to have a warning stating that they should make sure that they have read the FAQ before posting ? (perhaps this should be limited to some of the forums...).

I know these ideas sound like a paranoid trying to secure some forums but for people following the rules, it shouldn't be a big deal.

Anyway, I am curious to see what the others think about the changes to come.

Regards.

Eric

knackered
03-11-2002, 08:09 AM
They sound fine. Gives me more of a choice about what I read.
It would help also if we could sort the posts on columns, like not just by date, but by topic too. It may be nice if we could also have a 'crap' icon which would be attached to the title of a post if more than, say 3 people found the post inappropriate - and clicked the 'crap' button. Then we could sort on the 'crap' icon too. You see, if a post is bad, people reply to it in order to inform the poster that its bad, thus increasing the number of replies, which then attracts more people to reading the topic, add infinitum - it becomes like a fly trap.

[This message has been edited by knackered (edited 03-11-2002).]

Eric
03-11-2002, 08:10 AM
Actually, I have the most utopic idea of all: when people enter the topic of their new thread, could there be an automatic scan of previous threads that would warn the poster that the topic has been discussed already http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif ?

Regards.

Eric

P.S.: don't take this one too seriously !

knackered
03-11-2002, 08:18 AM
Now that is a very nice idea....*shouldn't* be neccessary, but obviously it is.

angryGLfan
03-11-2002, 10:35 AM
Eric:
Just saying thanks, that's all. And about the e-mail, I just didn't want a bunch of hate mail due to my post.

richardve
03-11-2002, 10:45 AM
I would like to see a sticky topic on top of each forum with answers to many asked questions so that we can redirect users to that topic (aka FAQ, but not as large as the technical FAQ) when they ask something that has been already answered for 1001 times.

This FAQ should not only contain raw information, but also links to code, images to explain things, etc.
And it would be nice if HTML could be used for those FAQ's so that a nice readable layout can be created.

Of course it shouldn't be possible to reply to those sticky FAQ's.

richardve
03-11-2002, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by angryGLfan:
I just didn't want a bunch of hate mail due to my post.

That's exactly the reason why I'm using a special SPAM adress http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

(well, it wasn't a few years ago.. but now it is thanks to the hundreds of SPAM mails coming in every day)

Evil-Dog
03-11-2002, 11:18 AM
woah....what a freakin waste of time....53 replies ???
I think 3 things right now (well more than that but 3 that concerns this post hahaha)
1) There are jerks everywhere so why should we try to "locate" them or whatever on a discussion and help forum...I thin it's useless and I think it's a bigger waste of time than just ignoring them (that's hard).
2) Not everyone has the same "self-teaching" ability you know....Sometimes people can look in the wrong direction that's all....or maybe they tried very hard to solve their probleme...but without success they are not gonna list every damn site or forums they went on just to proove you that they tried....
3) Finally, I'm happy that at least some solutions came out of this post. But I think there will always be off-topic post (look there's something like 30000 posts they can't be all precise and revelant)
after all....what should exactly be in the beggining or in the advanced forums ? anyway...peace everyone !

And you little "no-off-topic posts fanatics"...when you see a topic that you don't like just take your little mouse and use your little finger to click on the little scrollbar and GO TO OTHER DAMN POSTS !
http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif no offence ! *kisses*

----------------------------------
Evil-Dog
*Let's have a funny day*

MikeC
03-11-2002, 11:41 AM
My suggestions for Advanced buckets:

1. OpenGL 2.x (unextended)
2. OpenGL 1.x (unextended)
3. NVGL
4. AtiGL
5. Other hardware-specific

NV-specific posts aren't particularly interesting to folks without NV hardware. I suspect the 1.x unextended forum will be pretty empty, but when 2.0 arrives the idea of hardware-independent coding should start to get interesting again. Maybe combining the unextended forums would be better.

We also need a Windows forum to go with the Linux and Mac ones. We get a lot of Windows-specific traffic, mostly MSVC-related, especially in Beginners. Since OpenGL is supposed to be cross-platform, it shouldn't really be mixed in with the API usage forums.

And to Evil-Dog and Shag... hey, if you don't like our rants about strict forum purity, just scroll past 'em! Sheesh.

harsman
03-11-2002, 11:56 AM
I don't like the idea of dividing neither the beginners or the advanced forum into subgroups. First of all, even if we make a hundred little subgroups, there will still be newbies posting to the advanced board asking about z-fighting, how to select primitives and how to use extensions. All those questions are already answered in the FAQ, but that doesn't matter. Newbies don't read the FAQ, they're [B]newbies[B] fer chrissakes. If you don't know a whole lot about OpenGL, you're bound to believe that some of your simple questions are advanced.

However a few more top level groups would be good. One on general 3d-graphics and one on math perhaps. Maybe one one OS-specific stuff like wgl ang glx as well. Anything more complex than that and I'd have to start clicking thorugh lots of tiny groups instead of scrolling through one large like I do now.

One thing that might help reduce all the questions we've seen a thousand times before would be a more prominent link to the FAQ when posting. And maybe have a list of questions sorted by frequency at the top of the FAQ. The current layout might be kind of intimidating to newbies.

Korval
03-11-2002, 12:00 PM
What about common extensions (ARB and EXT ones)? The don't belong in NVGL or ATiGL, and they don't belong in either of the OpenGL 1.x or 2.x ones. And they're not really hardware specific, so they don't belong there either.

Granted, I'm not endorsing this idea. The Advanced board doesn't generate nearly enough traffic to be reasonably split into sub-boards. All it would do is force those of us interested in advanced issues to sift through multiple boards.

And cross-posting becomes even more of an issue, as you could see someone cross-posting to up to a dozen boards.

richardve
03-11-2002, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by harsman:
All those questions are already answered in the FAQ, but that doesn't matter. Newbies don't read the FAQ, they're [B]newbies[B] fer chrissakes.

Newbies don't read the FAQ because:

1) They can't find it (link is 'hidden' on the frontpage)
2) They think it's too large and don't want to spend their time to read it.

_That's_ why I'm voting for sticky FAQ topics, with only the questions answered that get usually asked on each board.

This will make the FAQ way smaller, easier to read, and newbies wouldn't have to search for the FAQ when it's a sticky topic.

(of course there could be links to the technical FAQ in the small FAQ's to elaborate more on a specific topic)

Gorg
03-11-2002, 01:14 PM
I agree with harsman. Splitting the advanced forum in subgroup would actually make it a pain to read.

I really like the current board setup. It is small and focused.

General 3d questions have their place in the Opengl forums because there are just so many api calls http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif I mean nobody really discuss opengl or opengl. We usually want to implement things that are general 3d concepts.


I really like knackered idea of a crap button. When we read the post, we could vote if it is a beginner or an advanced question. After say 5 people say it is a beginner question, it should be moved to the beginner forum.



[This message has been edited by Gorg (edited 03-11-2002).]

Evil-Dog
03-11-2002, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by MikeC:
.And to Evil-Dog and Shag... hey, if you don't like our rants about strict forum purity, just scroll past 'em! Sheesh.

mouahahah I like that ! haha
Using my own arguments against me ! hahahah
My point was there's enough war in this world let's try to stop making war in an help forum....

----------------------------------
Evil-Dog
*Let's have a funny day*

V-man
03-11-2002, 01:25 PM
Is there a "rules" page somewhere? Some basic things such as "dont cross post" or "double post"

followed by example questions that will give the person an idea of what is appropriate. Sure, it's all grey, white and black, but if there isnt anything that gives a clue, then mistakes will be made.
Worth a shot!

I think this is reply #59. WOW! Keep it up boys. We aiming for 100! http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

V-man

Evil-Dog
03-11-2002, 01:30 PM
V-Man good idea !!!
Something like a guide to know where to post a topic
The kind of guide that no one follows hahahaha http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif
really it's a good idea

----------------------------------
Evil-Dog
*Sleep is a waste of time*

Humus
03-11-2002, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by boardmaster:
Suggestions for new forum topics
We are trying to determine a list of new forums that would be helpful to steer beginning coders to the appropriate buckets.

For beginning coding forums we have:
General Programming Questions
General 3D & Graphics Algorithms
3D, Matrix, & Vector Math
Basic OpenGL "how do I do this"
3D Hardware & Extensions

Any other recommendations?

Also if we were to break down the Advanced Coding forums into more refined buckets, what would be the desired topic areas?

Thanks. We would like to get these modified forums up in the next few days so please post your suggestions soon.[/B]

I'm not sure if these forums should be labelled "beginners" forums, there are lots of questions related to for instance math that's advanced. I also think we should avoid to add too many new forums, the risk is that some of them gets more or less empty. Many sites with a forum do for instance have a forums with OS related questions, which quite often is more or less dead. So when people have a OS related question they tend to post it in another forum anyway just to get replies, often with a comment like "I know this should be posted in the OS forum, but since it's dead I thought I better post it here where someone actually reads it .. "

I think having different forums for beginners and advanced isn't all that good. It's too easy for people with higher level of knowledge to only visit the advanced forum, which means the newbie guys wont get the help they need. I think that's one reason why many beginners questions are posted in the advanced forum anyway. I'm not sure we should split Linux/Windows/Mac either into different forums. I think we should do like this:

Keep
* User hardware, software & gaming
* Suggestions for the next release of OpenGL

Replace beginners/advanced with
* OpenGL programming
* General programming
* 3d math and algoritms

Replace Linux/Mac with
* Operating system specific questions
* Vendor specific questions


The rest of the existing forums are pretty much dead anyway, I think we can do without them.

Elixer
03-11-2002, 01:35 PM
Boardmaster wanted comments, so I guess I will reply to that, (although that should be a new topic http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif)

Anyway, if you do decide to split Advanced up, I would so something along the lines of:
Advanced 3d theory (anything that has to do with 3d)
Advanced 2d theory (ditto but for 2d)
Advanced programming (anything that doesn't fit in the above 2--don't ask me what that is http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif)
Advanced hardware issues (NVidia & ATI & Creative--no more 3dlabs! &Matrox? bugs/conformance issues and so on)

That about covers it, but even this has problems since some people may think something is advanced FOR THEM, but it isn't advanced for the rest of the people who use these forums.

Perhaps you should force users to SEARCH the database first, since there are sooooo many good posts and the same question has been answered hundreds of times already.

It really is hard to weed out useless fluff from good topics, without haveing a full time moderator of some kind. (Or maybe a team of moderators)

MikeC
03-11-2002, 01:53 PM
Okay, I'm willing to be outvoted on the Advanced split. (Heh, like I have a choice...)

But we *do* need a separate Windows forum. Really we do. Anyone who disagrees with me there is simply wrong http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

Evil-Dog
03-11-2002, 02:00 PM
MikeC you are totally wrong ! http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif
haha just kidding !
Actually my post is really useless...sorry ! haha

-----------------------------------
Evil-Dog
*Let's have funny day*

Shag
03-11-2002, 03:00 PM
I'm sorry, but I disagree with most of the arguments put foward. I stick to my original guns and suggest that a few people are given moderator status to delete cross posts (this happens in most forums anyway), and move posts to the appropriate forum. But I think that the topic heading should be assigned a different icon to indicate that the post has been moved (perhaps for 24 or 48 hours)This would be a simple courtesy for the original poster - that way no one else has to bother reading it.

But in general, I think that inappropriate posts/cross post are mildly irritating at worst, and at best they manage to put a smile on my face first thing in the morning, which really isn't such an easy thing to do. Certainly a bit of humour in here is necessary. Recent 'other' topic for example! You know which one I mean http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

Other than that the general forum layout is fine.

I would like to see seperate forums for extensions and maths though.

One thing I have seen, which is a good idea, is to include links as a signature. Some of the moderators in gamedev do this. It's an easy and obvious pointer to relevant resources. I'll dig some out tomorrow and add them to my sig.


Regards

Lars
03-11-2002, 03:27 PM
If the new advanced forums get a bit more in depth names, beginners maybe get more attracted to a forum called just "OpenGL Programming".
The names could be from the opengl specs for example, like "Per-Fragment Operations and the Framebuffer" or "Rasterization" or more mathematical (beginners don't like mathematics generally) like "theory of linear algebra".
This gives many Forums, but if there would be a list of most recent posts like on flipcode, there would be an easy way to browse them all.

Lars

Rob The Bloke
03-11-2002, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by Shag:

I'm sorry, but I disagree with most of the arguments put foward. I stick to my original guns and suggest that a few people are given moderator status to delete cross posts (this happens in most forums anyway), and move posts to the appropriate forum. But I think that the topic heading should be assigned a different icon to indicate that the post has been moved (perhaps for 24 or 48 hours)This would be a simple courtesy for the original poster - that way no one else has to bother reading it.

But in general, I think that inappropriate posts/cross post are mildly irritating at worst, and at best they manage to put a smile on my face first thing in the morning, which really isn't such an easy thing to do. Certainly a bit of humour in here is necessary. Recent 'other' topic for example! You know which one I mean http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

Other than that the general forum layout is fine.

I would like to see seperate forums for extensions and maths though.


Regards

I'd have to agree (in parts), as far as I see it, the forum layout here is better than any other site that I've seen. I'd agree that there should be a few extra forums to deal with what may be considered OT stuff in the advanced forums, ie :

3d Maths and Programming
General Programming
Windows Specifics

But the number of additional forums should be kept to a bare minimum. Adding more forums is only going to increase the amount of annoying posts that we recieve. Instead of cross-posting in 2 forums, we'll get posts in 5 to 10 forums.

!! I don't want another Gamedev.net !!

Currently the forums do a fair amount of self regulation as it is. If someone posts something OT or in the wrong forum, they will be told about it within minutes of posting. That does not mean that we can prevent anyone from doing it repeatedly!

I've already noticed that a user in the beginners forum advertises his website and his own cacky library every week or so. This is not on. Cross posting is not on. But how can anyone here, possibly say, that adding an extra forum or two will solve this problem?

It wont.

There is only one solution as far as I'm concerned and that is the creation of moderators to remove this crap from the forums.

There has to be changes to the way in which the forums work as a whole to preserve the aspects that keep me coming back to them time and time again. I'd like to put forward the following :

1. The first post listed in all forums should be a maintained FAQ. Highend3d does this quite well with the quote "Read this FAQ before posting".

2. A defined set of rules for what is and is not allowed to be posted should be defined, ie, no cross-posting, adverstising, requests for pirated software, spam, or multiple posts about the same topic.

3. Moderators MUST be employed to back up the set of rules so that they actually have the power to inform someone when they are in breach of those rules. Again, currently there is a set of rules that most of us here abide by, so we should have the power to enforce them to educate the un-educated. Without this,2 becomes pointless

4. all posters must be registered, and for that to happen they must have a valid e-mail so that they can be informed if their post has been moved or deleted. Without this 2 and 3 become pointless.

[This message has been edited by Rob The Bloke (edited 03-11-2002).]

Adrian
03-11-2002, 10:59 PM
I don't want to have to check several boards and I'm sure a lot of people won't bother.

I think a poster should be able to tag their post as either windows,NV or ATI specific and a board reader should have options to filter any of those out.

Also board readers may tag a post as being off topic. A board reader could set their threshold as to how many people need to have tagged a post as off topic before they wouldn't see it.

Of course the first suggestion relies on people classifiying their own posts correctly but if they dont, board readers could legitmately tag the thread as OT.

A bit complicated but it gives complete flexibility as to what you see.

For those readers that choose not to filter anything out, the type of post could have its own icon to indicate what it is classified as.

richardve
03-11-2002, 11:13 PM
A bit offtopic.. but:

I would also like to see an automatic login http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

Zak McKrakem
03-12-2002, 12:17 AM
I don't agree to split the advanced forum. There are some good forums, email/lists, ... about Algorithms, maths, STL, ...
And I don't think that renaming the forums or adding new ones will help too much.
Now we have beginners and advanced forums and they used to work good. But, recently, there are a increasing amount of beginners that want to make their own rules: they want to post new threads (doesn't matter if the previous one is similar) with beginners and pre-beginners questions in the advanced forum.
And yes, as Rob The Bloke says, they are usually warned that they are posting in the wrong forum but in that case they usually not only ignore this warning but begin to complain and to ‘bark’ because you have warned him.
Adding new forums won’t help with this people, they will continue posting in every forum. As everybody has suffer, in every forum, moderated or not, from any web there are always those kind of people. Some of them are removed and they come back with a new free email address to complain, to say stupid things, etc. (You must understand that in many cases, their ‘social’ live is limited to write in forums). But at least, in moderated ones you can remove their threads, so I continue thinking that including a couple of moderators will be the only ‘good enough’ solution.
Adding a FAQ with quick links at the beginning will be good. Maybe a link redirecting to http://www.opengl.org/developers/code/tutorials.html, http://www.opengl.org/developers/code/samplecode.html, http://www.opengl.org/developers/faqs/technical.html, … (have you notice the big amount of information that are in this site www.opengl.org? (http://www.opengl.org?) http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif ) And a small ‘instructions’ on how to use the built in search, and how to use Google will be enough.

Jarkko Parviainen
03-12-2002, 01:39 AM
I've read the replies on this thread, and I'll add my little reply here too.

From the day I first visited these forums, things have really changed. I had done just basic stuff with OpenGL, and just about everything seemed advanced. Obviously I clicked the Coding: Advanced -link first. However most of the topics seemed to be way more advanced than I had thought when clicking the link, and so I decided to go where I belonged to - Coding: Beginners. Still I hardly ever posted to these forums, simply because of the search-link. Most of the OGL-questions I had then (and have now) have already been asked on these forums.

If I was that same beginner now and entered the Advanced-forum, I might have posted something. This is because there is a lot more beginner-posts on the forum. Once I even had to check that I entered the right forum because of the first couple of posts I read. Not only were they beginner-posts, they were asking questions that had been asked god knows how many times before.


Maybe making the Search-link a bit bigger and changing the position would help on this. Some moderators would also help, like some of you have said.


This is just about what I wanted to say. I probably don't need to post again in a few months, since most of my questions have been asked before. I only need to do some research and search for the answers, as usual =)