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View Full Version : ANNOUNCE worlds first unified shadow game



zed
01-23-2005, 04:39 PM
on this most depressing day of the year http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4187183.stm heres some 'good' news

http://uk.geocities.com/sloppyturds/KEA2/KEA2.html
problem is i havent been able to upload it (ive now cut the demo down to ~3mb, no sounds, crap quality textures)
the trouble is i cant find a place to upload it to, ive tried a couple of free places but the best ive managed to upload is ~25% in about 2 hours ( i have slow dialup) anybody got any answers?, perhaps i can email it to someone + they can chuck it up somewhere?
ta zed

rgpc
01-23-2005, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by zed:
on this most depressing day of the year http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4187183.stm heres some 'good' news
We're talking about the nation who's academics have come up with studies on which drink is best for dunking biscuits (cold milk - but they didn't specify what biscuits) and a study that stated that the UV rays in sunlight do not cause skin cancer (probably because their on the wrong side of the planet relative to the hole in the ozone layer). The "darkest" day of the year looks awfully bright and sunny to me...

bobvodka
01-23-2005, 06:07 PM
ofcourse, the views of the off spring of our unwanted trash are so valid ;)

zed, i've got some space I can lend to ya, on an account I forgot about hehe
However, I'm about to goto bed, so if you dont get a better offer between now and when i wake up in 8hour or so (say, 2pm GMT) then send it to me via email (I'll pm you it in a moment) and i'll upload it asap (you can even send the large version, i should be able to handle an 8meg email attachment)

Gorg
01-23-2005, 06:16 PM
I might sound stupid, but what do you mean by unified shadow?

MZ
01-23-2005, 06:57 PM
AFAIK, the first released game with "unified shadow" (assuming we telepatically agree on definition) was New World Order. It is not-so-popular game similar to Counter Strike.

Demo and screenshots here (http://www.3dgamers.com/games/newworldorder/)

zed
01-23-2005, 10:31 PM
bobvodka (sweet im emailing at present, 3mb (ive downgraded the quality of textures, removed sounds) i hope the mother doesnt cop out, yep it got sent so it should be in your inbox)

MZ - looks like precomputed lighting to me (lightmaps) though hard to tell from screenshots, anyways this honky heres got no shadow
http://www.p3int.com/Images_NWO_Screenshots_10.asp

by unified i mean nothings precomputed (what the hell am i on about i dont know what i mean, but it sounded fancy(tm))
actually its sort of like doom3 but in doom3 where only some objects cast shadows, everything here casts shadows and can get shadows cast onto them even the particlesystems.
actually its way more advanced than doom3, u can hold the torch and shoot at the same time!
im doing nothing fancy (just plain shadowmaps), though knowing the theory and actually implementing it are worlds apart.

btw thanks to everyone whos helped me out here over the years, i would name names but would forget a few, though i will mention humus+jwatte. whats this the oscars?

btw im not promising the game(what gane) to be fun (if u do find it fun youre sick), also the art/models are ones ive made recently so dont expect much

zed

knackered
01-24-2005, 02:25 AM
Err, any game that uses shadow maps could be described as having a unified shadow model couldn't it? Shadow maps are pretty indiscriminate about what casts shadows.
Oh, and no need to thank me zed, it's all in a days work for me...think of me like gandalf, riding through your village with a new spell to entertain every time.

lc_overlord
01-24-2005, 06:16 AM
Originally posted by zed:
by unified i mean nothings precomputed (what the hell am i on about i dont know what i mean, but it sounded fancy(tm))
actually its sort of like doom3 but in doom3 where only some objects cast shadows, everything here casts shadows and can get shadows cast onto them even the particlesystems.
actually its way more advanced than doom3, u can hold the torch and shoot at the same time!
im doing nothing fancy (just plain shadowmaps), though knowing the theory and actually implementing it are worlds apart.
zedWhen will you guys get it, there is nothing called unified shadowing, each shadow method has it's uses, thus unified shadowing is not something to strive towards.
It's all about unified lighting, to be able to use any type of lighting and/or shadow method freely, without any fuzz.
Just take a look at the unreal engine 3 video, it shows one or a few perfect examples of the use of shadowmaps, stencil shadows and projected textures all working together.

O, and by the way, if you get the ducttape mod for doom 3, you could hold the flashlight and shoot at the same time. :p

V-man
01-24-2005, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by lc_overlord:
When will you guys get it, there is nothing called unified shadowing, each shadow method has it's uses, thus unified shadowing is not something to strive towards.
It's all about unified lighting, to be able to use any type of lighting and/or shadow method freely, without any fuzz.
[/QB]You can use any type of lighting in GL and it isn't hard. Go ahead and project a texture to simulate a flashlight if you wish.

The hard part is shadows. There is no one true solution yet, but shadow maps (The PSM variety) is pretty good looking.

Zed, I would like to see the demo, but have a ATI. I hope you didn't program your GLSL in a non-conformant way.
What kind of shadows are you doing exactly?

zed
01-24-2005, 08:28 AM
the phantom has kindly oftered to host it here (only while stocks last)
http://members.gamedev.net/phantom/KEA_alpha.rar

Err, any game that uses shadow maps could be described as having a unified shadow model couldn't it? Shadow maps are pretty indiscriminate about what casts shadows.yes, i + you + most of the ppl here know it ( i know voodoo chile, doesnt mean i can perform it ie theres a world of difference between knowing and doing), but i do believe it is the first implementation that does shadowmaps totally, i did see somescreenshots of a spacestation game sometime ago, but it didnt seem to consider all lights as shadowcasters or all objects as shadow recievers
if anyone does know of any games that have done it yet please provide links to screenshots/info.

It's all about unified lightingtrue i suppose the only true unifying lighting method is when every object is considered a lightsource, radiosity ( FWIW i did write a realtime radiosity demo a few years ago, screenshot on flipcode, i might have another go at it again see whats happening with todays hardware )

btw knackered thanks for the entertainment value



Zed, I would like to see the demo, but have a ATI. I hope you didn't program your GLSL in a non-conformant way.most likely i did, it was all havked togther rather quickly (i use glMOdelViewMatrixInverse which aint available yet on ati i believe ), u could comment out the lines/delete the shaders, where they should be replaced with a bright orange default shader

SirKnight
01-24-2005, 01:43 PM
What objects in doom 3 didn't cast shadows? I don't remember when I played doom 3 saying "hey that thing's not casting a shadow like carmack said it would!" and I'm pretty sure I would have noticed it. I recall Carmack saying for years how everything casts its own shadow like you would expect. Now by default self shadows are turned off to get rid of the "popping" problem SV have, but other than that I'm pretty sure everything cast a shadow.

-SirKnight

Gorg
01-24-2005, 01:51 PM
I see. Well, in Doom 3, you can set some brushes and some lights(like lights on stairs) to not cast shadows. But by all means, everything could cast shadows.

Chris Lux
01-24-2005, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by Gorg:
I see. Well, in Doom 3, you can set some brushes and some lights(like lights on stairs) to not cast shadows. But by all means, everything could cast shadows.plus selfshadowing is turned off on most of the charakters, bacause of shadow poppinf artifacts...

knackered
01-25-2005, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by SirKnight:
What objects in doom 3 didn't cast shadows? I don't remember when I played doom 3 saying "hey that thing's not casting a shadow like carmack said it would!" and I'm pretty sure I would have noticed it. I recall Carmack saying for years how everything casts its own shadow like you would expect. Now by default self shadows are turned off to get rid of the "popping" problem SV have, but other than that I'm pretty sure everything cast a shadow.

-SirKnightI don't think there were shadow volumes for each light - where more than one light affected an object I think it took the average shadow volume for all the lights....cheating really.

ZbuffeR
01-25-2005, 12:27 AM
I don't think there were shadow volumes for each light - where more than one light affected an object I think it took the average shadow volume for all the lights....cheating really. Not quite. As others said, everything can cast and recieve shadow from every light. Basically there are flags for each brush and character to enable casting/receiving shadow (plus you can set a light to don't cast shadow).
This is to improve both performance, and visual appearence. In the leaked alpha, everything cast and recieved shadows, and that was not really great on characters'faces for example.

zed
01-25-2005, 10:08 AM
had a quick look at doom3 last night, turn on noclip + had a fly around (dont know what sortta dance the fella was doing with the zombie in the medical room)
theres quite a few places where theres no shadow, though theres very very little geometry at all, a few boxs, bars computer console etc.
*bars not casting onto all ground objects
*ppls hands not casting on the computer keyboards
*the walls not casting
*particle systems dont recieve shadow
etc
(now the lack of geometry is due to stencil shadows + the having to be very careful with the amount of polygons)

personally the main thing wrong with it though is the lighting take the first room (from demo version) where the spaceship is hovering in the air, where are the lights coming from? from up above somewhere but very hard to pinpoint the position/s, there a lights on the walls which dont seem to cast any light at all, ie theyre just textures of lights!

i can supply screenshot evidence of the above if anyone wants it.

this is not meant to be a rant against doom3 (personally i liked the game, as in gameplay wise) + it still is the most graphically advanced commericial game out, but it should of been out around 2002 + not 6 months ago, i believe if it carmack had known that years ago the whole lighting/shadowing method would of been different, ie no stencil shadows

SirKnight
01-25-2005, 03:27 PM
dont know what sortta dance the fella was doing with the zombie in the medical room
The hokey pokey. ;)

Which part of the game is this in? I don't remember it exactly.



this is not meant to be a rant against doom3 (personally i liked the game, as in gameplay wise) + it still is the most graphically advanced commericial game out, but it should of been out around 2002 + not 6 months ago, i believe if it carmack had known that years ago the whole lighting/shadowing method would of been different, ie no stencil shadows
Agreed. Probably why Carmack is doing shadow maps now. :)

-SirKnight

V-man
01-26-2005, 05:42 AM
Wow, it lost the video signal when I ran your exe. I guess the guys on the shading forum were not kidding. I had Cat 5.1

ATI just supports GLSL 1.00 so no inverse transpose . From quickly looking at a couple of shaders, I see that you are using integers instead of floats for immediate values. Why don't you turn on strict GLSL?


whole lighting/shadowing method would of been different, ie no stencil shadowsProbably. I don't think companies will continue to support ancient cards much longer. You can run this game on a Voodoo. You just get single textured objects. You can get decent FPS too!

zed
01-26-2005, 09:22 AM
Wow, it lost the video signal when I ran your exeone does try :)

Why don't you turn on strict GLSL?laziness on my part, i figure only nvidia cards are gonna be running it (cause of inversetranspose), discovered a big bug in it yesterday, i was only clearing the bottomleft 256x256 of the screen, for color/depth, most frames. only really noticed when i turned on wireframe + said to myself hmmm somethings not quite right. i wonder why i wasnt seeing more errors

zed
03-14-2005, 09:34 PM
new version
http://motueka.homeip.net/captain_courgette.html
beware will crash computers with ati hardware, nvidia owners better save there work as well before running, hehe

Elixer
03-16-2005, 11:02 AM
"warning this app does not work on ATI cards and will crash the computer (guaranteed or your money back)"

Ain't that the truth. :D Or should that be :eek: or even :(

Screen shots look nice...

Humus
03-16-2005, 09:51 PM
Any particular reason why it doesn't work on ATI?

Edit: Never mind, it's obviously a driver bug. I'll file a bug report on this.

Edit2: zed, do you know what condition is causing this hang, or any other details that may be useful for our driver team?

zed
03-17-2005, 09:51 AM
no sorry, ill try to upload a simplifyied version today that illustrates the problem that gffx are having with occlusion query perhaps that will shed more light. also i may get a radeon next week (if ive got enuf spare cash) if i go down to christchurch so that should help me figure it out.

zed
03-18-2005, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by zed:
no sorry, ill try to upload a simplifyied version todaysorry i didnt update it yesterday humus (my alterations are gonna be more extensive than i first planned)
instead of cluttering up this forum ill post news at the CC webpage when a new demo's available
http://motueka.homeip.net/captain_courgette.html