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07-14-2000, 06:33 PM
Hi, my name is Bill Gates, and my company does everything for the consumer. Really, we're trying to please the consumer, instead of going after their money. Please, we CREATED Direct3D for you!! We never do anything right, so we keep updating DirectX, and umm, make the impression that OpenGL is falling behind... Oh by the way, I am a big penis and will continue trying to monopolize everything. Please buy the X-Box, it can do a trillion operations per second. You know that!! That's more than my money... man I've never seen so much opertions/second in Microsoft. Gee. Please throw your PlayStations and Nintendo 64s away, because they don't know this... don't miss out on the MICROSOFT X-box. If you don't have a X-box, you're stupid. People will think something is wrong with you. I am still a cock. Oh yeah, did I mention? Our software and our libraries are buggy, and we demand to control the PC market.

Thanks for the concern.
Now you should use the API that everyone else has been using DirectX! I mean even OpenGL.org is giving out tutorials on DirectX, ofcourse it must be a really good API right? That's what I thought.
Ok, now go buy the X-box!

-Always looking after your money, I mean you.
Bill Gates

07-14-2000, 09:33 PM
ha ha http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

Galileo430
07-15-2000, 08:41 PM
ha ha

Blaze
07-16-2000, 05:08 AM
he he, nice one http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

ngill
07-16-2000, 08:56 PM
heh, the only decent thing microsoft has made is mice... other products are well, I'll leave that up to Mr. Gates http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

Roderic (Ingenu)
07-17-2000, 01:03 AM
I like very much M$ Hardware (keyboards, mice...)

But I dislike their software...

tom
07-17-2000, 05:00 AM
yeah, but masm rocks, whatever those nasm freaks say...

phlake
07-17-2000, 08:35 AM
i have a dream of a future where microsoft has pretty much died away, their software market gone and their strangle-hold on the industry dissipated, left in the world as a dying company, but supported by the one thing that they're really good at: mice and keyboards.

you know, i can use my usb intelli-eye on my imac? and since it's usb, i can yank it out of my pc and swap it. pretty cool.

ngill
07-17-2000, 09:24 AM
You guys better hope that their X-box doesn't make a big hit... They've already got Carmack working with them... (guy who made the Q3 engine and now working for Microsoft on the Xbox), if X-box makes big, OpenGL dies! (because it uses DX!)


Originally posted by Ingenu:
I like very much M$ Hardware (keyboards, mice...)

But I dislike their software...



[This message has been edited by ngill (edited 07-17-2000).]

MikeC
07-17-2000, 10:19 AM
Sigh.

One: Carmack is not working for Microsoft. He comments on their stuff in informal tech reviews, that's all. He does the same for Apple, 3Dfx, NVidia and probably a whole bunch of other people.

Two: MS has already committed to shipping a full OpenGL ICD/NVidia driver with X-Box. Carmack has stated that anything he does on X-Box will use OpenGL. So what's the big fuss? It's just another platform, with some nicely-specced gfx hardware but a fairly pathetic amount of RAM.

Folks, I dislike Microsoft as much as the next guy, but TBH threads like this just make the OGL community just look kind of lame. If you have to flame, at least flame accurately.

ribblem
07-17-2000, 11:53 AM
You mean Microsoft has given Nvidia permission to make the OpenGL drivers. Microsoft, itself wouldn't dare touch the dirty OpenGL.

As much as I dislike microsoft I have to admit they are finally getting DirectX right. It only took till version 8 though http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

Well there naming convention still leaves alot to be desired.

ngill
07-17-2000, 03:38 PM
Yeah... I read it on over slashdot... he even replied himself, and said he still prefers OpenGL for now.

Yeah, and buncha guys said MS can ignore him all they want... + that he had moved MS towards opengl before, and hope they can do it again!

ironduke
07-17-2000, 07:54 PM
Wehayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

It good to have a funboy lighten this forumn up every know and then, it's a pitty a few seriousboys towards then end of the thread turned it serious.

Bill Gates = Jerky!

07-18-2000, 07:55 AM
I'm sure I'll get ripped on this, but here is my question. Why is Microsoft so hated? I can understand that the software has bugs, but so does everything else. My main point is, with OpenSource OSes, why hasn't every MS-hater devoted some time into making Linux, BeOS, etc...a valid/legit programming OS(and develop applications and compilers for it). I'm new, and I know I'm making it sound easier then it is, but with all the MS protestors, why hasn't this been done in a timely fashion? Not to mention, why are people still using it? As long as a majority of the people complaining still use it then MS has no need to fold to their every request/demand.

Hopefully (painlessly) y'all can help me understand these situations.

07-18-2000, 09:49 AM
Oh, there are people that do something about Windows sucking the big one. It's called using Macs. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

SHaggy

EdenMatrix
07-18-2000, 10:00 AM
>I'm sure I'll get ripped on this, but here >is my question. Why is Microsoft so hated? >I can understand that the software has bugs, >but so does everything else.

This is just my personal opinion, and i don't ~hate~ MS i just don't like them because their success is not based on superior products but a monopoly of the industry.

Another reason i don't like their software is because they try to make everything so bell and whistly, and 'easy' to use that when someone who actually knows something about computers uses the program, he/she goes insane and ends up sitting in the corner of a street waiting for it to rain in order to fill a cup and make some green jello. =P

07-18-2000, 10:09 AM
Microsoft, his compilers, his operating systems, his programs, his consoles and all of them sucks.
Kiss me the eggs Billy.
Billy's dick is the littlest dick in the whole wide world.

Whittick
07-18-2000, 11:00 AM
EdenMatrix I agree with you on that point absolutely, but I do see a good side to it. If software is easier to use that means more people will use that software (my powers of the obvious are truely amazing). Since more people use the software it drives the industry to develop it creating better and hopefully cheaper software.

Just my 2c

Chris

masterpoi
07-18-2000, 11:09 AM
As far as I know, there hasn't been anybody yet who could write an operating system that works on so many different configuration of computers and hardware as microsoft did.

I can't.. Can you?

07-18-2000, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Mr. Antagonist:
I'm sure I'll get ripped on this, but here is my question. Why is Microsoft so hated? I can understand that the software has bugs, but so does everything else. My main point is, with OpenSource OSes, why hasn't every MS-hater devoted some time into making Linux, BeOS, etc...a valid/legit programming OS(and develop applications and compilers for it). I'm new, and I know I'm making it sound easier then it is, but with all the MS protestors, why hasn't this been done in a timely fashion? Not to mention, why are people still using it? As long as a majority of the people complaining still use it then MS has no need to fold to their every request/demand.

Hopefully (painlessly) y'all can help me understand these situations.

dude, you are on crack... linux is developing faster than MS windows. a lot faster, have you seen Windows Millenium?!?! It runs applications SLOWER than win98, it has barely faster boot times. But yet, MS is releasing them, so that the people buy it, and it makes money and invests into stuff like directX and Xbox and other software, it feeds on people's money. I use linux, and I love it... true, I have had a little problems getting used to it at first, but hey I had the same problems with win3.1 when it came out... dude, KDE is only two years old!! did you know that?! Microsoft dictates how computers should be made and how programs should be written (that's bad). I could go on endlessly... I used to be misinformed like yourself, but now I see the giant in its true shape. You need to be able to recognize the devil when you see it son. It won't always have a red body, and horns. How much control do you have over how windows works? Barely any... How much control do you have how X works? A LOT!! (If you know what you are doing!). How stable is win98? (5 bluescreens/day?). Dude I urge you to try linux, there are plenty of websites that'll help you get started... get like Mandrake 7.1 or the latest distro of RedHat... By the way, a lot of stuff is free, like GIMP (Adobe Photoshop=bunch of $$), StarOffice (MS Office = $400), Enlightenment/X/Linux (MS Windows=$100), gcc (MSVS = $500). gee that's a lot of money!! that you can use to get a lot better hardware, more ram, better sound card, video card... Good companies are already building 3d video drivers for them!!

hades
07-18-2000, 04:08 PM
Bear in mind that even if the X-Box and Direct-x are successful, which is unlikely given the PS2 and it's opengl support, OpenGl is an extremely good option for graphics developers in windows, linux, and the future Macintosh OS X. DirectX does have somne good technology, but the fact that it is not portable greatly decreases its appeal to the open-mined developer.
--hades

MikeC
07-18-2000, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by masterpoi:
As far as I know, there hasn't been anybody yet who could write an operating system that works on so many different configuration of computers and hardware as microsoft did.

I can't.. Can you?

I think you've got this backwards, to be honest. Windows runs on Intel x86 and compatibles. That's it. It sort of ran on Alpha for a while, but not very well. By comparison, Linux runs on just about every platform known to man (although again, quality varies).

If you're talking about device support, then you've really got it backwards. Those devices aren't supported because Bill&Co sat down one day and wrote drivers for them all. They're supported because all hardware vendors write drivers first and foremost for Windows, because it has by far the biggest market share.

It's a feedback network effect. Bigger OS market share -> better ROI for vendors -> better driver support -> bigger OS market share. Microsoft's technical prowess - or lack thereof - has nothing to do with it.

Eden-Matrix
07-18-2000, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by masterpoi:
As far as I know, there hasn't been anybody yet who could write an operating system that works on so many different configuration of computers and hardware as microsoft did.

I can't.. Can you?

Yes. Unix. It runs just about every single platform out there. Not only that but it is a gazillion times more robust. Windows only runs on Intel machines, and the only reason it "supports" so many different hardware configs is because the manufacturers make drivers for Windows because they have control of the market.

Funny sidenote, i recently received an old Dell P133 laptop from my brother in PR he's not using anymore. It has Win2000 installed. It never boots up.

Cheers.

yrclrisgrn
07-18-2000, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by ngill:
heh, the only decent thing microsoft has made is mice... other products are well, I'll leave that up to Mr. Gates ;)

not even, buy a kensington, they're erect

yrclrisgrn
07-18-2000, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by Whittick:
EdenMatrix I agree with you on that point absolutely, but I do see a good side to it. If software is easier to use that means more people will use that software (my powers of the obvious are truely amazing). Since more people use the software it drives the industry to develop it creating better and hopefully cheaper software.

Just my 2c

Chris

You guys are missusing the term "easy-to-use" what you mean is "easy-to-learn." Bash, vi, etc, are easy to use, far easier to use than any MS product yet concieved. Windows however is "easy to learn".

yrclrisgrn
07-18-2000, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by masterpoi:
As far as I know, there hasn't been anybody yet who could write an operating system that works on so many different configuration of computers and hardware as microsoft did.

I can't.. Can you?


Is this some kind of sick, perverse, joke. or are you just disqustingly ignorant

(I don't like to flame much, but this one NEEDS it)

masterpoi
07-19-2000, 10:15 AM
Yeah right!!
So why has Billy made it and the others didn't?
Yust Luck?? I don't think so...
I bet 80% of you is running Microsoft Visual C++ on a Windows machine.
It's true that there are some thing Microsoft could have done better...

Their position in today's computer software market proves that they have been smarter...
Maybe not now anymore, but they have..

07-19-2000, 10:49 AM
I use VC++ 6.0, I've used borland also... I like smart indenting...

BUT, I ever since I made my move to linux... I write better code... like stuff compiles on VC fine... but sometimes I have problems on linux (seg faults), but when I clear up the problem... no seg fault, and the programs run fine under vc too... vc should have more rigorous checking... but, now I write well and this happens rarely.

gcc is a very powerful compiler, and it's free. the only reason I use MSVC is because I got it like 10% the retail price... I mean c'mon, where would I spend my money? MS now supports makefiles because of gcc http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif. I mean c'mon where would I spend my money? new graphics board every year? or a new compiler?

masterpoi
07-19-2000, 11:07 AM
ok, that's a point

Kilam Malik
07-19-2000, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by yrclrisgrn:
You guys are missusing the term "easy-to-use" what you mean is "easy-to-learn." Bash, vi, etc, are easy to use, far easier to use than any MS product yet concieved. Windows however is "easy to learn".


Ok, show me a (blonde?) secretary who writes tex-files with vi. You won't find many! So where's your problem? Why can't everybody use the OS which satisfies his needs?

[This message has been edited by Kilam Malik (edited 07-19-2000).]

xvs
07-19-2000, 01:10 PM
If that secretary wrote text-files with vi, she would be a network admin instead http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif
Seriously though, vi and family are HARD to LEARN. There is a steep learning curve; you don't learn the full power of these in 10 minutes. But M$ programs are easy to learn, which is why 'users' (read: those that use computers like vacuum cleaners) use M$ stuff instead of the more powerfull vi. I'm sure if the secretary took the time and had the patience to learn vi, she would appreciate how easier his/her life would be (appart for the absurd requirement of having everything in Word format)

07-19-2000, 07:18 PM
Ok, here's my point of view...I didn't want to make a contribution to that kind of debate, but I can't help myself to say that:

Most of you who spit on Microsoft are doing that because Microsoft is number one, and made products for EVERYONE !!!

But you guys, you're not EVERYONE, you're computer gods !!! How computer gods can use products that were designed for mortals ??? It's just impossible !!! You're going to use VI and recompile your kernel every week, waiting for a good graphic card with 3D drivers and use GNU...Good for you !!!

You're all right !!! Using VC++ is just too easy for you guys!!! Reinvent to world again, it's a very good waste of time ! After all you're gods, it's your job to reinvent the world !!!

I was at first a system programmer, using many OSes, NeXT, RiscOS, unix, and Win...
And you know what ??? My favorite one is Win, why ??? Because it's the most complete one !!! It's made for everyone !

Of course it's far far far from being perfect, but the job was far away harder than making an Unix !!!
Just look with all the stuffs you can do with a Win95, and how a WinNT/2K is powerful!
Some stupid guys will answer: blue screen 5 times/day (somebody already did if I remember)! Blue Screens flashes for driver/kernel failure, just buy a better card from a more reliable manufacturer and you'll see the differences !!! And it's not the Microsoft's fault!

I like Microsoft (bouh, shame on me) because they made things evolving !!! More than other companies !!!

I'm just starting OpenGL, and you know what is my opinion about it ??? WHAT A FxCKING MESS !!! DirectX (ok, from the 5 version) is easier and more coherent (in my humble mortal opinion) than OpenGL!!!

So why I'm learning OpenGL ??? Just because of the Extension mechanism which let me exploit my GeForce2 (I can't wait the DX8 drivers to use this great card!)

And a last thing, Mr Carmack is the god of every god, and that's why he likes to use OGL!!! He can't use DX, that'd make him a mortal!!!

That was rude, sorry, but I'm seeing those stupid debates too often for me to calm down!

Gates is a great guy, but it's a business guy, not a computer guy!!!

PS:That was my only message about this debate, and I'm sure it's already too many!

07-19-2000, 09:32 PM
As I mentioned above...to get away from windows...use a mac! I love macs...i mean everything can be done in one click...its so simple! That way I can make sex logs of my adventures with my icons very quickly..what turns me on the most is the little beep sound the older macs use to make when you maxed out the volume! Mac OS XXX is the sexiest operating system ever oh ya baby!

SHaggy

blide
07-19-2000, 11:35 PM
Although I like everyone else say that I hate Microsoft, and windows, I actually think microsoft did a very good job. Sure it is not very stable but that is just one "minor" problem. The system has almost no learning curve...which makes it excellent for a beginner(kinda like a mac) but on the flipside(unlike a mac) it has power underneath this simplicity! I guess I can't really explain what I mean by power...but I still feel like I have complete control of my system(like the good old days with dos) everything of mine is customized and optomized...microsoft has done a very good job in their interfaces...it is a very logical operating system when it comes to commands...as in the right mouse button brings up what you would expect. Macs on the other side have the simple interface but thats it! There is no power underneath...and also the mac interface is not logical at all! If you ever have a problem on a mac...you need an expert to come and fix it, but on windows you can normally do it yourself.
I am not saying I think windows is way better than all other OS's though...Linux is on its way up and i have heard good things about it...and unix will always be there. If anyone company/OS is the worst...I would have to say its apple and there damn macs!!
As for D3D vs OGL, from what I have seen opengl looks simpler to use and much more powerful than d3d...but that does not mean directx sucks, i love ddraw, dinput, dsound, dmusic! Microsoft has done a very good job so far...and the only reason why they have so many bugs is because of the power the user is given to dig into the depths of the OS and thats where the bugs are found for all OSs. Microsoft is actually able to pinpoint and solve most of our problems.
And last but surely not lease, Microsoft Office and Microsoft Visual Studio are by far the best(and I SERIOUSLY mean this) and I mean BEST tools I have ever used!!!

Damn this is much more pro-everythingmicrosoft than I was thinking but oh well...I love office, visual studio, directx, and windows is almost up there...just fix the stability, and give me a better console(like an xterm!)!

masterpoi
07-20-2000, 09:03 AM
I couldn't have said it better;

hades
07-20-2000, 09:23 AM
All this bickering about choosing sides is rather counter-productive. As long there are things like opengl to give other os's a chance, the actual competition will result in better products from all of the different companies.

EdenMatrix
07-20-2000, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by blide:
Macs on the other side have the simple interface but thats it! There is no power underneath...and also the mac interface is not logical at all! If you ever have a problem on a mac...you need an expert to come and fix it, but on windows you can normally do it yourself.

Honestly, i can respect your opinion on Microsoft, but don't say stuff about the macintosh which is not true. I think the current macintoshes are just as powerful as the PC's out there and the interface is just as easy to use and in my opinion simpler. Most people don't 'understand' it because they've used Windows all their life and immediately give up to what is not familiar. As for having a technician come over to fix the mac, i wouldn't know because i've never had a problem with it. I flipped the keyboard up once to put some memory in and that's it. Works like charm. I play games on it, do Engineering stuff, do 3D and programming and it all runs smootly and consistently. As I said, my Win2K laptop never boots up. =)

Cheers.

blide
07-20-2000, 10:03 AM
I apologize for what I said about macs...I mam just very opinionated about them http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif
You are right I have not used it much so it does not seem as good windows. This may be just that I started learning with the PC and DOS and moved to windows, or it actually may be true...but i just find windows much more logical than MacOS when it comes to changing things and etc... Of course it could just be microsoft warped my mind into what is normal and what is not! oh well....i guess i shouldn't talk about something I don't know much about!

Rob The Bloke
07-20-2000, 03:29 PM
At the end of the day, long drawn out debates about OS's are pointless. I program on a 'wintel' PC and on an SGI machine using irix. With careful coding programs are easily portable between the two. OS's are designed to give an environment in which you can use tools to do what you want quickly and efficiently.

I'm personally of the opinion that windows doesn't suck for this single reason......

If I write and compile a program, I know that the majority of people will be able to run it on a windows based PC. (no offense to macOS or any other OS)

This is the one thing that has allowed such rapid development of the PC over recent years.

It's the same with D3D and openGL. You can argue over which is best all you like, but at the end of the day, they both do the same thing:

ALLOW YOU TO DEVELOP APPLICATIONS THAT CONFORM TO A STANDARD. YOU CAN BE CONFIDENT THAT ANY APPLICATIONS CONFORMING TO THAT STANDARD, WILL BE ACCESSIBLE TO THE LARGEST POSSIBLE TARGET AUDIENCE WITH THE MINIMUM OF HEADACHES FOR THE PROGRAMMER.

I don't dislike either d3d, windows or any other microsoft application. I actually have respect for them. I know they are not perfect but, without them, my productivity on a computer would be limited. (and lets face it, I have not the experiance or time available to code something better)

Having used irix, you soon find that there may be something that you wish to do, and you think back to your trusty pc and think, "God, i wish i had photoshop right now, and my compiler, and my graphics package, and some quality games etc etc, all in one 'does everything' package" (may do some things better than others, but hey!)

Sorry for my rant...



[This message has been edited by Rob The Bloke (edited 07-20-2000).]

07-20-2000, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by TheWizard:
I'm just starting OpenGL, and you know what is my opinion about it ??? WHAT A FxCKING MESS !!! DirectX (ok, from the 5 version) is easier and more coherent (in my humble mortal opinion) than OpenGL!!!


so... how many lines do you have to write to put a triangle on the screen with DX? 5000? hey buddy... I can write a program in less that 1% of that, that'd do the same thing...

Guess what!!! if microsooft is so good, why does it need to update dx every year?!?

07-20-2000, 05:59 PM
yeah... uh how portable is your DX again? Sorry I didn't get that the first time around... oh btw, does it to hardware t&l yet?

blide
07-20-2000, 09:18 PM
Just reading your post...I thought directx7 had T&L support...in my directx programming book you can set the direct3d mode to hardwareTnL...I am 100% sure I saw this....so what are you talking bout wassuh?

Whittick
07-21-2000, 03:10 AM
Wassah you obviously have no idea what you are saying or why your are saying it. Microsoft is a market player, they like to get their products out first (to hopefully get control) then refine them over time. Each improvement to Directx has been quite substancial and number 8 is appearently going to be good. Basically you are saying if a peice of software needs to be patched it sucks tho you related it to MS cause there seems to be some kind of anti MS bandwagon lately (everyone wants to be L337). The reason there is a new version every year is because the graphocs industry is evolving and MS wants to keep up with it by offering developers everything (IMHO) they can.

Chris

Roderic (Ingenu)
07-21-2000, 04:36 AM
what a big thread for a funny starting post...

M$ is bad, because it's not good.
I tried Linux, Windows and BeOS.
BeOS and Linux are free, windows costs a lot of money.
It's not worth it.

I'im using BeOS5 Personnal Edition and never got any problem, the only minor problem is lake of drivers, but the OS is so well written that maing your own drivers isn't hard.

I agree that you must not flamme M$ if you can't propose a better solution.
To me this solution is BeOS, an easy to use free OS.

M$ is a big marketing firm with no engineers inside since DOS3.3...
Those how knows INTEL processor history, MSDOS and ASM will agree with me.

How many of you knows what an INTEL CPU is really capable of ?
And since which generation ?

07-21-2000, 04:46 AM
>>
But you guys, you're not EVERYONE, you're computer gods !!! How computer gods can use
products that were designed for mortals ???
<<
You make some valid points but...

I don't like Linux because it's hard, I like Linux because it's honest.

Open source is honest.

John

RobertSI
07-21-2000, 12:13 PM
I just gave up on DirectX and took up smoking
crack. They both leave you with the same feeliing - DAZED AND CONFUSED!

RobertSI
07-21-2000, 12:15 PM
I just gave up on DirectX and took up smoking
crack. They both leave you with the same feeliing - DAZED AND CONFUSED!

07-21-2000, 12:30 PM
As I read though almost every single message in this topic I notice not only a pattern but a complete back fire in the face of whoever it was that mentioned the word monopoly and MS in the same sentence. Having the choice between OpenGL and DirectX. Having the choice between Windoze and Linux, etc. Microsoft obviously does not control the public in forcing people to use it's ****. If they did then they would be considered a monopoly. But no. As you can see, several people chose to use Linux, and OpenGL as their API of choice.

Another bitch I have is that Linux is good. Yes indeed. But people like to interact with things visually. So they came up with Gnome, and KDE, etc. Which suck major ass I might add. Netscape, Gnome, and KDE crash more than Win98SE from what I have experimented with them. But the visual interface is why so many people opt to stick with Windoze. And I personally think M$ hit the jack pot when they released Millennium Edition. they got rid of DOS (almost entirely), which makes boot up from 10 seconds to 30 on a normal system. and it seems to be extremely stable. not as stable as linux but it fares alot better than 98. And more. With the windoze crashes, the blue screen of death, those kind of crashes, those are MORE hardware related than software. I'm not saying software wouldn't cause the blue death screen to appear, but a majority of it is from hardware. Quoted strait from a book I have in my lap "General Protection Fault in USER.EXE relates to the USER core component has run out of file space, Add the lines FILE=100 to the config.sys file." Well, I dont know about you but, I haven't had a General Protection Fault in ages. I think M$ did something right in fixing that. Relating to the Blue Screen of Death, "0E or 0D exception errors : 0E errors refer to bad memory, and 0D errors are video problems." If you get one of these errors, it doesn't necessarily mean your video card or memory is bad, but if you get them repeadly and randomly, it could help in diagnosing your ****ty comp. What these errors could also mean, is that the shoddy program you were running before it crashes is a POS and did an "illegal operation". i.e. divizion by zero or something stupid that it's not supposed to do. But because Microsoft wanted to give the user FULL CONTROL of his COMPUTER with DirectX for example, shoddy programs are bringing the OS down with it. So Microsoft is now trying to pry the Kernel, etc. away from the user and his shoddy programs disallowing direct access, or reverting access through an error check type o' thing to prevent such programs from crashing the OS. Microsoft did this with WinNT4, and did it correctly, but found incompatiabilities with games, drivers, etc. thats Why the NT OS's only supported Directx up to version 3. Then M$ decided to come up with Win2K which intigrated directx and their "protection scheme" together, but still found out, that **** wasn't compatiable, so came WinME. fairly stable, and fast to boot. pun intended

07-21-2000, 10:07 PM
yeah... too bad, it runs programs slower...

oh yeah, win2000 pro huh? how about eatin 64megs of ram just sitting there?

win2000 adv. server eats up 120meg ram... what's up with that??

even IF X crashes, you don't have to reboot... like winblows. Btw, it won't crash unless you're doing something wierd... like modifying the source yourself, then it's your fault.

kha
07-23-2000, 05:15 AM
Not that I like to post in those kind of threats but if you are here it must mean that you are OpenGl coders.
May I ask you a question ?
If you do an openGL prog for kids, or a video game would you make a configuration GUI in which you can settle up everything ?

Linux and Windows are not the same thing at all. Even Linus Torvald admitted that linux would never be a personal OS. If you want to make a system for a secretarian, a PR or anyone that does not understand how a computer is working you take windows.
That is true that most of the time when Linux get stucks (and it does) you can switch consoles make a ps and kill the process number that is bothering you.
Now just a question how would you explain that to a PR ?
Somebody who does not now why its x server is locked can unlock it.
I made the test at least twenty times. A client of mine wanted linux on his computers because of the price and of the stability. That was two years ago since KDE was here with staroffice 5.0 I decided to make the try. Hudge mistake.
First it took me almost a month just to teach them not to double click !!! and how to react when they did by mistake.
When the X-server occasionally crashed (some comptuters where P-75) I had to go by myself to the client, there is no way who can tell somebody on the phone how to switch console, save his work in command line kill the x server and start it again on a distant pc....

Furthermore even if I must admit that Win95 was nothing more than a pay for it three years long beta test, win 98 can be stable.
Of course it took me as much trouble as installing a slackware (For personal reason I do not like RedHat based distrib - in fact I hate RPM) but my PC is working fine. It crashes once every two months and has suffer 2 main board and 5 graphics cards change in the last 2 years. And guess what I never had to reinstall windows.

Linux is great for prog, graphics, everything realted to mailing list, docs server and so on. But if you want to play or to write text windows if far better.

Ah one last thing about macs : Never has windows gotten half the grip on pc apple has on mac(G3 AND G4 specs are secret, develloping linux for G4 is a nightmare) . Never has Bill gates lied half as much as Steve Jobs is doing now (Comparing 4000$ G4 to standard pc, saying that the new G4 bipro will be the first personal bipro computer in the world).

Mac memory Architecture is a pain. I never managed to use it properly. (And I wonder if anyone appart from Photophop devellopers ever did.)

I do not like Microsoft way, because it is abuse of position, but I trully hate Apple way.

To come back to OpenGL/D3D what is important is what you want to do. Once you answered this question you will know what to use.

(I am french so if part of this post are not understandable please tell me).

Kha

Noah
07-23-2000, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by masterpoi:
Yeah right!!
So why has Billy made it and the others didn't?
Yust Luck?? I don't think so...
I bet 80% of you is running Microsoft Visual C++ on a Windows machine.
It's true that there are some thing Microsoft could have done better...

Their position in today's computer software market proves that they have been smarter...
Maybe not now anymore, but they have..

Im running a MAC, using REALbasic and have never soiled my pretty little hardDrive with a ****ty Microsoft product!!

Noah
07-23-2000, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by blide:
Although I like everyone else say that I hate Microsoft, and windows, I actually think microsoft did a very good job. Sure it is not very stable but that is just one "minor" problem. The system has almost no learning curve...which makes it excellent for a beginner(kinda like a mac) but on the flipside(unlike a mac) it has power underneath this simplicity! I guess I can't really explain what I mean by power...but I still feel like I have complete control of my system(like the good old days with dos) everything of mine is customized and optomized...microsoft has done a very good job in their interfaces...it is a very logical operating system when it comes to commands...as in the right mouse button brings up what you would expect. Macs on the other side have the simple interface but thats it! There is no power underneath...and also the mac interface is not logical at all! If you ever have a problem on a mac...you need an expert to come and fix it, but on windows you can normally do it yourself.
I am not saying I think windows is way better than all other OS's though...Linux is on its way up and i have heard good things about it...and unix will always be there. If anyone company/OS is the worst...I would have to say its apple and there damn macs!!
As for D3D vs OGL, from what I have seen opengl looks simpler to use and much more powerful than d3d...but that does not mean directx sucks, i love ddraw, dinput, dsound, dmusic! Microsoft has done a very good job so far...and the only reason why they have so many bugs is because of the power the user is given to dig into the depths of the OS and thats where the bugs are found for all OSs. Microsoft is actually able to pinpoint and solve most of our problems.
And last but surely not lease, Microsoft Office and Microsoft Visual Studio are by far the best(and I SERIOUSLY mean this) and I mean BEST tools I have ever used!!!

Damn this is much more pro-everythingmicrosoft than I was thinking but oh well...I love office, visual studio, directx, and windows is almost up there...just fix the stability, and give me a better console(like an xterm!)!

If you took the time to use MACs, you would see that the HAVE MUCH MORE POWER undr the hood than any wintel machine with a much shallower leraning curve.

Noah
07-23-2000, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by kha:
Not that I like to post in those kind of threats but if you are here it must mean that you are OpenGl coders.
May I ask you a question ?
If you do an openGL prog for kids, or a video game would you make a configuration GUI in which you can settle up everything ?

Linux and Windows are not the same thing at all. Even Linus Torvald admitted that linux would never be a personal OS. If you want to make a system for a secretarian, a PR or anyone that does not understand how a computer is working you take windows.

(I am french so if part of this post are not understandable please tell me).

Kha

This is total BS. If i'm writing a program that targets people who are unfamiliar with computers, i write it for the Mac. Thats because people are starting to realise that Macs are easier, and at the same time much more powerful (500Mhz G4 faster than PIII 1GHZ).

kha
07-23-2000, 01:10 PM
You mean if you needed to do a program for a secratarian you would trully consider buying a G4 ?
I never said that mac was a bad plateform, I do not like the way you have to deal with memory (but it may be because I am not used to it).
What I said is that the mac is an expensive plateform.(For the price of a G4 500 Mhz you can buy a 1GHZ PC.)And that Apple was not playing fair lately.

If a firm has to buy 20 computers for secratarian pool they will not choose Mac but PC (depending on the needs it is wether celeron wether K6-2/III). And for the price of 5 G4 they will have 20 computers more than powerfull enough for typewritting.

The choice after is between windows and linux. And I still say windows is a much easier choice and will bring you really less trouble....

Kha.

07-23-2000, 08:05 PM
kha... windows will give you less trouble in the beginning! Linux will give you less trouble in the end, and all together!

Call up windows tech support, and ask how often do they format their pcs... I did this atleast 10 times... the average was 6-8 months!!

fenris
07-24-2000, 12:04 AM
All I have to say is...
Linux has evolved more in one month than windows has in 1 year. And it will continue to do so. It's the OS that does anything. Maybe not now but it will. You will all see, if you haven't seen already. The desktop is not the *primary* goal of the GNU/Linux OS. It's mearly a single goal out of a wide spectrum. World domination bay-bee. But as you can see, Linux is slowly but surely getting a grip on the desktop world. KDE, Gnome, Enlightenment, etc...are all good things. You have alternatives within the alternative. Awesome. I like that. Most people like being able to decide for themselves. Windows GUI? Aww, you don't have a choice my friend. You are stuck with it. Aside from the desktop wars, I see no reason at all why Linux will not conquer within the next 2-3 years. Driver support for the latest hardware is getting better by the minute. We can all forget the NVidia thing now. Sure it took forever, but it kicks 3dfx in the teeth with no apologies. Sure they are closed source. I hated that too. But I got over it. I've yet to see anything top them.

Windows got it's head in the market because the PC scene was not yet mainstream when it debuted. And anyone and everyone (just about) came into the Windows thing from MS-DOS. Which at the time was the definitive OS of the PC unless you used a Mac (or possibly Amiga). I should know...I was there. Linux on the other hand is rather new to the mainstream PC scene, and I must say has caused quite a ruccus. That's good. Intrest has been taken.

Linux is struggling to suite everyone's needs and yes, at this moment is still considered geek-ware. That will all change. You can't tell me that if you sat some suit or CEO in front of a Win95/98/2000/blah/blah machine he'd know exactly what to do. I know because I deal with it every day. It makes no difference what-so-ever. Computers intimidate average joe's. The OS it is running is insignifigant. All they want is to be able to check their freaking email and do some online stock trading. Whoopie.

Microsoft got the computer/software industry into it's slimy coorperate grips simply because they were at the right place at the right time. Nothing more nothing less. And from this they have become an icon in the modern world as 'THE computer company'. More and more people are waking up and seeing there is more to this industry than just Microsoft. Which is why Linux is going to screw them dry without even considering the use of vaseline.

I must admit. There are some things I love about Windows and the genere and there are things that I totaly abhor about it. Linux just seems to grow and grow, while Windows sits and stagnates because it can. Microsoft does not innovate they just like to say they do. I've not yet managed to depict the difference between 95/98/2000 other than GUI enhancements and the amount RAM this freaking vampire seems to requires to run. Linux is the only thing that I see happening in the industry that excites me. Finnaly we see some REAL innovation. We see something actually challenging Microsoft's reign. And we see something that's doing a real damn fine job at that. Competition in any market is good. I don't desire Linux to be the next Windows. I merely like the fact that ther is something other than Windows. You can take it or leave it. That's the way it should be.

I hope nobody has their panties in a knot over this post. I am extremely tired right now, so if this seems to be a pointless rant in your eyes then I'm sorry. I felt the need to say something. I wasted my time reading your posts so the least you could do is read mine =). Any and all type-o's were made on purpose. My bed is bekoning and spell checking is for the meek and insucure. That and it's a total waste of time.

Since this was originally a D3D related thread, I may as well say something on topic. I've never tried D3D thus I have no quams about it. But if it's anything like the Win32 API, may it rot in hell. =)

masterpoi
07-24-2000, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Noah:
Im running a MAC, using REALbasic and have never soiled my pretty little hardDrive with a ****ty Microsoft product!!

And does that make you more a man?

07-25-2000, 07:47 AM
I just wanted to thank you all for your responses (not quite sure I wanted to start this much of a debate, but it was a good learning experience for me). To be honest, I do work a little bit with UNIX (and VI --> learning curve is definitely there), but I prefer Win NT for the time being (who knows what the future holds).

For now, I think I'll stick with the Windows enviornment and program under C/C++ complied with VC++. Hopefully after reading some articles/books on both DX and OpenGL, I'll be able to make a solid decision on with API to program with.

Thanks again.