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darketernal
02-02-2002, 12:02 PM
I try all the OpenGl tutorials , but they seem all to be written in Visual C++. Am i just a dumb blond(i guess, even though im brunette) or should i stop using Borland Enterprise and buy a Microsoft Visual C++ enterprise??? What advantages on OpenGl Subject besides (i've heard it has better IDE) it has on writing Dynamic OpenGl applications???

endo
02-02-2002, 01:08 PM
You should remember that C++ is still C++ no matter where it is written. In theory you could use word to write the source files (although compiling it would not be fun http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif)

I've not used Borland, but I would guess the best is the one which you are most comfortable using. I like VC++ but should probably get around to trying Borland...

zed
02-02-2002, 01:17 PM
>>What advantages on OpenGl Subject besides (i've heard it has better IDE) it has on writing Dynamic OpenGl applications???<<

the advantages are most ppl release stuff with the vc make files included (thus its a bit easier to get something up + running if youre lazy) though code wise there shouldnt be much difference, though vc6 has major problems with templates #define MAJOR_PROBLEMS dont work

darketernal
02-03-2002, 02:29 AM
Thanks everyone, i'll cop..ehm buy Microsoft Visual c++ enterprise today http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

Miguel_dup1
02-03-2002, 02:07 PM
I would say that the best editor for c++ is that of visual c++. I love it. It has a sweet auto-complete functionality.
Something that bothered the s**t out of me was that to create a simple class, you have to use the wizard or else you will be bitting your fingers trying to figure out why it is not compiling a simple class wont compile.
Also, little things like if you create a simple string like:
std::string str;
and then use a cin like

cin >> str;

VC++ will go crazy on you saying that your code is useless and you have to relearn c++, but exactly the same code compiles perfectly with borland or any other....!!!!

Try buying the msdn magazine for this month, and quick, because it comes with the professional version of visual studio .NET beta 2; full version. I use it, and it works like a charm for being free. And classes dont need the whole wizard thingy....

I'd go for VS .NET.
Also, VS is kind of like standard for developing in companies...

Latah warriors.

marcus256
02-04-2002, 10:30 PM
Personally, I think it's a shame that a pricy commercial compiler like MS VC has become more or less the defacto standard for Windows / OpenGL development. Sure, it's Windows, and it's MS, and it's surely visual, but yet - it sucks that you are expected to own it in order to get around with simple OpenGL tutorials etc.

I think that any coder that releases source code for a program or a tutorial should take the time to make the code compile under GCC at least (which also makes it a h*ll lot simpler to port the code to e.g. Linux) - if not, at least try to make it work with Borlands free compiler.

darketernal
02-05-2002, 12:46 PM
ehm

Lucretia
02-06-2002, 04:32 AM
Originally posted by darketernal:
Thanks everyone, i'll cop..ehm buy Microsoft Visual c++ enterprise today http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

Don't bother! It's a pile of crap. Most of the so called "sweet features" don't actually work properly. The compiler isn't ANSI compliant either. Templates don't work properly either.

Use Borland, but just rearrange the code for that IDE. I'm sure that there are newsgroups or help somewhere for Borland.

C/C++ is C/C++ unless you're using M$VC++, then it isn't. I use it for work and I've been trying to get CodeWarrior and it looks like I may finally be getting that ;-)

Luke.

rpxmaster
02-06-2002, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by Lucretia:
Don't bother! It's a pile of crap. Most of the so called "sweet features" don't actually work properly. The compiler isn't ANSI compliant either. Templates don't work properly either.

Use Borland, but just rearrange the code for that IDE. I'm sure that there are newsgroups or help somewhere for Borland.

C/C++ is C/C++ unless you're using M$VC++, then it isn't. I use it for work and I've been trying to get CodeWarrior and it looks like I may finally be getting that ;-)

Luke.

I 100% agree with this. It has to have the worst interface ever for writing C/C++, and if all you're gonna do with this is compile somebody else's OpenGL code, then you don't need it. Come to think of it, I don't even use Enterprise software, I use Borland C++ 5.02, and that's just enough for me. I can compile NeHe's code with this. If you can't get a tutorial to compile with Borland for some reason, then...yeah, do what Luke said. Why do you think this message board exists, anyway?

nexusone
02-06-2002, 12:19 PM
Have you tried lcc, a nice freeware compiler.
And you also should write all your programs using glut so that you can be platform independent!!!!

darketernal
02-06-2002, 12:38 PM
I HAVE ENTERPRISE version of MS VISUAL C++ NOW http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

I asked Jeff:

(i always wanted to know why you prefer the microsoft visual C over Borland builder 5.0.)

he replied

(Much better IDE, more widely supported.

nice email by the way.)

Well anywayz i want to have the BEST tools because im specialising myself in OPENGL. But this is madness, Borland is so easy , but Jeff says MS visual has better IDE, and i have a though time and rarely find OPENGL that is written in borland. SO WHAT THE HELL IS IT???

BORLAND VS VISUAL C++

im more confused than ever and if BORLAND was so *between hooks, easy to use* then why is everyhting in VISUAL C++????

Omg it's so weird. *puzzled* http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/frown.gif

[This message has been edited by darketernal (edited 02-06-2002).]

Miguel_dup1
02-06-2002, 01:23 PM
Compilers dont need IDEs. However, it is for your benefit to have a good editor. This is a crucial difference between Borland and MSVC, or Code Warrior and MSVC.

The autocomplete features that MSVC have is of great help.
How many functions can you memorize, or how many members of any given struct or class can you memorize????
With MSVC, as soon as you type a function and open the parethesis, it will list all of the option parameters it takes... Or when you use the any scope resolution operator, it will show what is available for use... I can go on for a while mentioning all of the editor's capabilities...

How many times have scratched your head thinking about what parameter goes first in a function? Or what are the functions available to you in a class or a lib?...

I dislike that MSVC has become the standard because it is very expensive, but they offer a great editor and set of wizards!

I use gcc as well, but debugging in gcc is a MaxPain...

If you are concerned with the whole cross platform issue, get Code Warrior if you have the money because they have it for linux, windows, and mac and is not as expensive as MSVC...
Besides, a program becomes platform dependent regardless of the compiler you use if you are using windows or linux or mac specific libs...

If you have the money, buy MSVC or Code Warrior. Code warrior is far superior than Borland.

If you are cool with a free compiler and writing all of your code from scrath, you can get the borland compiler SDK or the MSVC SDK for free at their site. And a simple and powerful text editor to hack some code up in no fancy way, go to notetab.com . These people have a great free of charge editor...

Also, there is a dll that ports most utilities for linux to windows... Search for cygwin.

Man, I am tired after all this writing...
I am practicing for my englsh class I am taking.

Latah http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

rpxmaster
02-06-2002, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by darketernal:
im more confused than ever and if BORLAND was so *between hooks, easy to use* then why is everyhting in VISUAL C++????

You know, I've been wondering this myself, and you're not the first person to ask this. In fact, I've heard so many variations of the statement here that it's not even funny. For instance, I've heard numerous people say that Linux is so easy to use, and it's better, but everybody uses Windows anyway--everybody's heard this one, admit it--and I've even heard college professors say that even Corel WordPerfect Office is better than Microsoft Office, but they're obligated to teach us how to use Microsoft's office because, well sadly, everybody uses it. So, why is everything in Visual C++? One word: Microsoft.

Microsoft's compiler, like mostly every other evil product they make, isn't supreme because their product is better than the competition's, it's because...well, it's supreme. This is the reason why most businesses choose to use their products over the competition, and is the reason why Jeff put the 'more widely supported.' bit in that email reply.

02-06-2002, 09:12 PM
As far as I know does MSVC not have any advantage for normal OpenGL programming. If you want to use the latest from MS like SOAP, .Net or whatever they are called do you probably not have any alternative.

You do not have to memorize everything if you want to use some other IDE or editor than the one from MS. All editors for programmers should support easy lookup of that information. Editors like vim and emacs has probably a lot more functions than the MSVC IDE. Here is an article with advices for more effective text editing: http://www.moolenaar.net/habits.html

You have a lot of visual front ends for gdb the debugger for gcc. Here is a article about DDD http://www.ddj.com/documents/s=869/ddj0103a/0103a.htm

It is easy to get copies of MS products but free software is cooler. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

marcus256
02-07-2002, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by Zico:
It is easy to get copies of MS products but free software is cooler. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

True! http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif I would guess that the majority of hobby programmers are using pirated MSVC compilers just because it has been forced upon us as the "standard" Windows compiler.

And there are competent free IDEs and editors that can be used together with free compilers. For instance, check out http://www.objectcentral.com/vide.htm (works with gcc/g++/gdb and Borland C++/Borland Turbo debugger).

Lucretia
02-07-2002, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by mancha:
Compilers dont need IDEs. However, it is for your benefit to have a good editor. This is a crucial difference between Borland and MSVC, or Code Warrior and MSVC.

The autocomplete features that MSVC have is of great help.


Actually it only seems to work if you use VC to create all of your source files and use the class wizard thingy all of the time and even then, it WILL break and just stop working.

This just isn't feasible for games/embedded kind of work.

But then you have the problem of the workspaces taking over 5 minutes to load when you've been working on a project for a while. I have no idea why this happens either?

The only thing I like about M$VC++ is the text editor's cursor movement. I've not been able to find another editor *anywhere* that comes close - although I haven't tried Borland. I mean, I can move the cursor easily with CTRL + cursor keys a word at a time and the cursor won't skip past comments or to the next line instead of going to the end of the line first!!! If there is one under Linux, let me know.

I currently use Emacs at home, but I'd prefer to use something better - even if I have to write it myself http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif - and VI(M) is not even an option!!

When it comes to GCC, it's a damn fine compiler and at least I can disassemble source files directly to see what code has been produced - which is necessary sometimes.

Debugging it is a pain, but then you can use graphical front end. Although they're not that great.

I'll let you know about CodeWarrior when/if I get my hands on a copy (At work)!!!

Luke.

Furrage
02-07-2002, 04:58 AM
I use M$ VC++ and its cool. I never fully figured out MFC and this precompiled header thing. I also hate the amount of additional code and junk class wizard puts into the code. Deleting code with class wizard is even worse (it only comments it out). If you type in something without using class wizard it can break the wizard and leave you up the creek.

But the worst part is you end up giving half your paycheck to Micro$oft. I my bro hadn't got me a copy I'd be using a free IDE right now. Free compilers are absolutely great (mostly because they are free).

With that said the auto complete and lookup features are the best (they're actually addictive). Help is cool too but that should be the case with any IDE.

Miguel_dup1
02-07-2002, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by Lucretia:
Actually it only seems to work if you use VC to create all of your source files and use the class wizard thingy all of the time and even then, it WILL break and just stop working.

This just isn't feasible for games/embedded kind of work.




Well, I have been using MSVC for a little while now and any struct, class, function, etc... weather created with the wizards or not, the editor will pick up on it equally. Trust me, I have code warrior 6, borland 5.02, and MSVC 6 and .NET, and MSVC has a better editor... I know I sounds like I love microsoft to death. Not true. I am a Linux and Unix administrator and love both OS's much better than Windows. The thing is that you have to give credit for the good things that tools have.

I would definately use gcc or any free compiler if I could use MSVC editor with them. No argument there.

Another good editor that I have seen that is kick A** is the one of JBuilder (Java stuff), by the same people of Borland C/C++...

SOAP stuff??? MSVC .NET is now using such technology... JBuilder 5, even 4 could use such technology, and they are a few years old... So MSVC is new with this SOAP and XML stuff.

When you have over 10.000 line of code, 60 structs and classes however. You may want to use the best editor available... Big companies dont pay the extra money because they like microsoft... Nobody has set standards for compilers other than the compilers themselves.

I used Borland with my OpenGL stuff, and I liked it, I am not saying that it is not an option. But VC++ has a better editor...

OK, let me clarify this OpenGL warrios...
I am right there ya'll about the whole taking over the world thing that microsoft has with their products not being cool; I myself hate it... The only reason why I use microsoft stuff is because I get it for free at work... I never have spent a dime in their products, and never will... When I did not have the job I have now, I used gcc and loved that bad baby.

Lucretia, I completely recomend Code Warrior. I dont know if you use GLUT, because if you do, I was not able to set it up to work with Code Warrior; and if you find a way, I would appreciate it if you gave me a brief walk through... I wish I could distribute it the way I could with the Linux open source community.

Later... http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

p.s. I am gonna have to copy and paste what write here and turn it in as papers for my English class because they damn long... http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

Miguel_dup1
02-07-2002, 06:34 PM
Do any of you play Tribes 2??

rpxmaster
02-07-2002, 07:51 PM
I'm going to get it. Tribes2 is on my must-have list. Why do you want to know, anyway?

02-07-2002, 10:45 PM
Sorry if the SOAP example was bad. My point was just that new stuff in Windows is many times first supported by Microsoft's own compiler. I would love to be wrong but I think this is very important for many.

Do not forget that other editors also has a lot of good stuff. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

Lucretia
02-08-2002, 05:37 AM
Originally posted by mancha:

I used Borland with my OpenGL stuff, and I liked it, I am not saying that it is not an option. But VC++ has a better editor...

OK, let me clarify this OpenGL warrios...
I am right there ya'll about the whole taking over the world thing that microsoft has with their products not being cool; I myself hate it... The only reason why I use microsoft stuff is because I get it for free at work... I never have spent a dime in their products, and never will... When I did not have the job I have now, I used gcc and loved that bad baby.

Lucretia, I completely recomend Code Warrior. I dont know if you use GLUT, because if you do, I was not able to set it up to work with Code Warrior; and if you find a way, I would appreciate it if you gave me a brief walk through... I wish I could distribute it the way I could with the Linux open source community.


Well, we're about to start PS2 development so, I may well be getting CodeWarrior to play with.

I wrote my own framework and we have a 3D engine that sits on top of a 3D driver framework (OpenGL/DX/etc.), so I don't use GLUT at work. I may try it though and send you the howto http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

I agree that the editor is fine, but I just downloaded the new version of Crystal Space (0.92) but M$VC++ crashes when I try to load the csall.dsw!! How crap is that??

Laters.
Luke.

Miguel_dup1
02-08-2002, 07:01 AM
I wanted to know about tribes because it is fine game, and it would be cool to play.. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

Buy buy.

darketernal
02-08-2002, 07:35 AM
Yuk ,people well guess i cop...ehm buyed the Microsoft Enterprise edition for nothing http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

I guess i'll be sticking to OpenGl in Borland 5 enterprise edition, hmmmmm

Well actually i think it's retard cuz i mean if you are a bit knowlegdeble and handy dandy like a lot, you would go for code warrior or Borland, so i hope the standard will be Borland cuz you can hardly get your hands on Codewarrior and microsoft Visual is blarg...*chockes falls down and dies* beyond the GRAVE so to speak http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/tongue.gif

rpxmaster
02-09-2002, 07:58 PM
They only make Borland C++ for Windows, right? I don't know, so that's why I'm asking.

heiman
02-11-2002, 07:27 AM
Borland is porting its C++ and Pascal compilers/IDES to LINUX. It's called the Kylix project. More info can be found on Borland's web site.