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Thread: The ARB announced OpenGL 3.0 and GLSL 1.30 today

  1. #91
    Super Moderator OpenGL Guru dorbie's Avatar
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    Re: The ARB announced OpenGL 3.0 and GLSL 1.30 today

    In terms of simplification this is the worst of all worlds for an implementor, and it extends the pain indefinitely. It tries to be developer centric but in an unhealthy way that just never cleans up the landscape.

    Chosing between a clean new API and an old one based on a context creation is nice and simple. The right way to do this is to say "See OpenGL 2.x spec". To offer a matrix of options that overlaps is fugly and makes the support burden for implementors even higher. But the most worrying thing here is you just rattled off 3.1 & 3.2 revs without any suggestion that this really needs to get sanitized as part of a clean break. Leaving deprecation up to vendors in a knife fight turns deprecation into a game of chicken. It's so obviously flawed I guess you have to be in the middle of it to miss the boat anchor fetish.

    I can see the motivation here but having an excuse is not the same as having a sound justification, the future cannot be about serving the needs of the slowest moving elements of the developer community and pissing off the rest. Dinosaurs who can't port their apps do not deserve the right to hold back the future. They can be serviced with OpenGL 2, accomodating that model in OpenGL 3 as a bridge to the future, well, what does it really accomplish? Help them feel better about riding the short bus?

    If you wanted to provide this you could have given them semi-supported developer drivers for their port (not for general release, EVER), it didn't need to go in the spec and be rolled out on everyone's machine.

  2. #92
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    Re: The ARB announced OpenGL 3.0 and GLSL 1.30 tod

    Quote Originally Posted by dorbie
    Yes, but from the spec you have to discern the intent before you know what the hell is going on. Which has led to this political disaster. You need to put a stake through the heart of that 2.x cruft by releasing a 3.1 spec ASAP that makes it clear this stuff is gone. Not *might* be gone in some future release, but end of life, pining for the fjords. Start potring or die. GONE in the next revision.

    From aesthetic and educational purposes alone it's justified.
    A very high priority goal was not to remove any function without clearly communicating to the developer base that said function was on its way out, and this goal led to the development of the deprecation model.

    So now we have a spec that clearly marks what's deprecated, and we also have a facility for developers that want to start work on updating their app for the next revision, to do so under a GL 3.0 driver - by requesting a forward compatible context at runtime. i.e. you can use a GL 3.0 driver to simulate running under a 3.1 driver where the deprecations have actually taken effect. Depending on implementation, some drivers may run faster in this mode due to reduced state tracking overhead.

  3. #93
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    Re: The ARB announced OpenGL 3.0 and GLSL 1.30 tod

    Those extensions are in the registry now.
    Forgetting for the moment the fact that you completely missed the point, consider this.

    ATi's policy on OpenGL at this point is to ignore any and all extensions that they don't already support. They had no intention of supporting the D3D 10 extensions; they will only support core features.

    So reliance on extensions is like relying on the ARB: never a good idea.

    However, you missed the main point, which was that there are (potentially if not in fact) advantages to using the "deprecated functions don't exist" version of OpenGL "3.0". Possible performance optimizations and so forth. However, I can't use that unless I'm already using a GL "3.0" context, which requires more hardware than I would like to support.

  4. #94
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    Re: The ARB announced OpenGL 3.0 and GLSL 1.30 tod

    Quote Originally Posted by Valion
    This is just kind of insane. Talking about MS vs. the ARB is a joke, since the ARB just commited suicide. The most insulting thing possible is an ARB member asking for future input, after outright killing OpenGL. Then again, if you're going to run an organization with a small amount of cutting edge members, and a huge amount of members who are based on nothing ever improving, what can you expect.

    "Hay, want to keep supporting a 7 year old piece of trash?? ?? What? No? I don't understaaaaaaand!"

    Seriously, it's impossible to see this as anything other than a joke. OGL v2 was the first complete failure that caused most people to flee. But this is something different...whole platforms are being abandoned.

    I don't know why there's even any discussion about NVidia, or ATI, or Intel, or any other company related to graphics. The ARB's core audience are now entirely GL 1.x-related CAD companies.

    Several platforms use 'GL-like' interfaces, rather than anything actually connected to GL, and we now know why.

    Any project with a 'Khronos' member involved should be abandoned immediately. There is no future, obviously. It seems really difficult for Khronos members to understand it, but they've ended OpenGL.

    OpenGL is dead. Khronos killed it.
    Now i get it. Microsoft dont need to shi t their pants for the next years about linux gaming. That sounds like a plan.

    Lets compare now(minimal as much as my brain can do):

    DirectX 10.1 SDK:
    - works with latest hardware
    - lots of documentation
    - lots of examples
    - lots of tools (even texture format/model/shaders)
    - updated regularly

    OpenGL 3.0:
    - 2 new pdf documents(which remain to be implemented in next vendors drivers, haha.. cant wait the new bugs and poor implementations of those)
    - new website with Khronos/ARB picture.

    Which one is more attractive?

    Btw, what will gonna be posted on http://www.opengl3.org web site? More docs? Khronos/ARB pictures from siggraph? Hehe... we need more pics!!! No wait, we need more extensions, more extensions.. must be shi t load of fun to write those papers dont needing to worry about examples/implementation/docs and so on.. give us more extensions haha...

    With out doubt, Khronos/ARB are just losing the control.. yeah, exactly, they have no "master" to push them, losing direction is very easy..

    RIP OpenGL 11-13/08/2008

  5. #95
    Super Moderator OpenGL Guru dorbie's Avatar
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    Re: The ARB announced OpenGL 3.0 and GLSL 1.30 tod

    As I said in a subsequent post, deprecation seems to be a game of chicken now and that's a bad thing. Even ignoring that the driver support matrix is complicated by this. It might even do a good job of guaranteeing the longevity of cruft while complicating driver development and test, at least for now.

  6. #96
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    Re: The ARB announced OpenGL 3.0 and GLSL 1.30 tod

    With the seemingly bias towards negative comments here, I think it would be wise to actually take a look at what GL3 has now as core in the spec and place all this in perspective. Nearly all very useful DX10 level functionality is there, which brings GL3 to a near up-to-date API for current hardware functionality.

    Pending driver support, which I'm sure will soon follow by all the major vendors, this will enable a developer to actually use current hardware features on all platforms as well as hopefully get cross-platform DX10 level support on Windows XP (assuming ATI/Intel releases XP GL3 drivers). If this is the case, GL3 actually will enable a considerable market advantage over a DX10 only title because Vista still has little market share.

    IMO, GL3 is an excellent step forward!

  7. #97
    Super Moderator OpenGL Guru dorbie's Avatar
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    Re: The ARB announced OpenGL 3.0 and GLSL 1.30 tod

    It's not all bad, with the deprecated stuff out it's very clean and ES like as I said in my first post, but that stuff's still in there. As for the missing stuff there's no point in pouring salt in the wounds.

  8. #98
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    Re: The ARB announced OpenGL 3.0 and GLSL 1.30 tod

    Nearly all very useful DX10 level functionality is there
    That's a lie and you know it. Geometry shaders and uniform buffers are both missing. I haven't done a side-by-side feature analysis, but both of those are important D3D 10 bits of functionality.

  9. #99
    Super Moderator OpenGL Guru dorbie's Avatar
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    Re: The ARB announced OpenGL 3.0 and GLSL 1.30 tod

    To be fair you need to visit his web site, he has a nice summary that's not as gloom and doom as your assessment.

    http://www.farrarfocus.com/atom/

    I hope they clean up this "deprecated" roadmap.

  10. #100
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    Re: The ARB announced OpenGL 3.0 and GLSL 1.30 tod

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Barris
    So now we have a spec that clearly marks what's deprecated, and we also have a facility for developers that want to start work on updating their app for the next revision, to do so under a GL 3.0 driver - by requesting a forward compatible context at runtime.
    This whole "Depreciation" nonsense and having two different versions of OpenGL 3.0 at the same time seems to be causing a lot of confusion here, so lets just look at it from a different angle.
    The new drivers will export 3 different types of context:
    1/ A 2.1 Context with extensions to add new functionality.
    2/ A 3.0_Full Context that is basically the same thing as the above but with the new extensions promoted to core.
    3/ A 3.0_Forward_Compatible Context which is the "Real" version 3.0 with the legacy stuff removed.

    A lot of confusion (and yelling) would have been prevented if 3.0_Full had just been called version 2.2 (Which is what it is, 2.1 with some promoted extensions).
    The "Real" 3.0 could then have stood on its own as the new future API with all the cruft removed.

    If the hardware vendors create a 3.0_Forward_Compatible DLL that only impliments the performance API then this is all that needs to be loaded when an application requests this context.
    A second DLL would then impliment the 2.1/2.2 legacy API on top of the performance API, only being loaded if the application requests either of these contexts.

    In the future these can then be implimented as the seperate "profiles" in future versions of OpenGL.
    ie. the OpenGL 3.1_Legacy profile for compatability with obsolete programs, and the OpenGL 3.1_Performance profile for everybody else.

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