This is a good breakdown of things that would help repair the trust relationship that the ARB has lost over the last 7 years.Things that would help;
- whats going to be released?
- why the delay?
- why the silence?
- why should we trust them again?
This is a good breakdown of things that would help repair the trust relationship that the ARB has lost over the last 7 years.Things that would help;
- whats going to be released?
- why the delay?
- why the silence?
- why should we trust them again?
What annoys me is what's so special about the siggraph date? If it's IP problems, why does the date of the siggraph show have any relevance? If you have information, give it to us now rather than putting on some publicity stunt. It's too late for publicity stunts, we want some information *now*. You're not launching a new console, you're releasing a specification well beyond its promised date. There's nothing to celebrate or be smug about.
1) Maybe the spec is so damned awesome, that everybody who sees it for the first time, falls to his knees, thanks the gods and kisses the feet of the ones who brought it.
And that's just what they want to see in live action with a huge crowd!
2) Maybe they are not quite done yet, but believe that it is mostly done until Siggraph, so they can present it there.
3) They KNOW they will not be done until Siggraph by far, and will present just a bit of information.
Choose what you like.
Jan.
GLIM - Immediate Mode Emulation for GL3
If it *is* IP problems, they couldn't possibly know they would be resolved by siggraph. So, it's either not IP problems, or they're playing games with us at the expense of OpenGL's future.
That's interesting. None of the possible answers to these questions are of any matter to me. As long as they get something usable kicked out of the door. Sure, out of curiosity I'd like to know too. But it really doesn't matter. It won't help me with my programming issues. A well designed and supported API would do.Originally Posted by Korval
Trust? Trust is a concept needed in personal relationships. I don't have *any* relationship to Khronos. I wouldn't have a relationship to Microsoft, if I used DX. Would you "trust" Microsoft?
Jan, you forgot one:
4) They officially announce GL3 to be dead or replaced by something completely different.
(Would be a good reason for announcing at Siggraph, since you will see some funny faces then. ;-)
CatDog
The choice of what graphics API to use is a matter of trust. You trust that all of the people involved, from the writers of a specification to the implementers to the OS environment, are working to make sure that the API is stable and does what it says.Trust? Trust is a concept needed in personal relationships. I don't have *any* relationship to Khronos. I wouldn't have a relationship to Microsoft, if I used DX. Would you "trust" Microsoft?
Using Direct3D would mean trusting that Microsoft and IHVs were doing their best to make a stable, performant graphics environment. Using OpenGL means trusting that the ARB and IHVs were doing their best to make a stable, performant graphics environment.
Thus far, one of these is living up to its obligation. The other is not. The ARB can toss around specifications till the cows come home, but that doesn't mean it is something that should be used. I wouldn't trust production code to GL 2.1 on Windows, and I wouldn't advise anyone else to do so either.
Anytime you rely on someone else's code for your product, there is a trust relationship.
And how can you trust the ARB to support a decent API? To push it forward? Bring in new functionality ASAP?
I trust MS to do the best by DX that they can because it is important to them to have it working on Windows to continue pushing it as a gaming platform. The ARB have no such commitments, even the companies which make up the ARB don't such as NV or AMD. Regardless of what happens they'll sell graphics cards whatever the weather.
You need to take all of this in historical context; for YEARS the ARB was a silent wall, giving little to no information and every year tossing out a spec which the IHV would support in varying ways at verying times.
Then, Pipeline happens, we are told that we'll be told me and for a while it seemed believable; news letters, discussions, asking of our opinion and then, finally, SIGGRAPH 07 rolls around, the day everyone has been expecting and the spec... well, it isn't quite ready but it's 'nearly' there, so we say 'ok, get it done, don't rush but if it's nearly done it shouldn't be long'. Then this thread appears, 'erm, we have trouble, we've made some changes, but it shouldn't be long...' and then, 6 to 7 months after it was 'nearly' done we get told 'SIGGRAPH 08!' a YEAR after it was 'nearly' done.
By contrast, MS shout about their graphics API, they give people status and free stuff for prompting it and they don't say something is 'nearly' done and then take a year to get it out. Look at DX10, maybe some slippage but it was here with Vista. Look at DX9; multiple upgrades and releases. An SDK which gets updated every 2 months.
Look at the difference and tell me; which group do you think you should trust to push things forward in the future? For a little while it looked like the ARB might have been stepping up to be that group, but it looks like it's still MS because they are willing to do that much more it seems.
Not even the "What's going to be released?" Well, if you just want the working GL3 come back in a year. It *should* be nice stable by then and many people on this forum can help you through it.That's interesting. None of the possible answers to these questions are of any matter to me.
If that's not what you want, why are you here? This topic is all about complaining and speculation. Nothing here about a "A well designed and supported API" that's for sure.
The first post in this topic is quite amusing, in hindsight. Amusing in a pathetic sort of way.
Microsoft is doing the things needed to promote it's own products. So does nVidia, ATI, Intel. And Khronos does this as well, I suppose (well I hope!).
Making the product better is just one of these things. It's more than obvious that there are other things going on behind the scenes. Things that I don't know and probably will never know. It's happening all the time, superior products get doomed by forces that remain under the hood.
How can I build a trust relationship on top of that? It's business! Really nothing trustworthy in my opinion.
If the ARB releases OpenGL3 at Siggraph and vendors agree to support it, I will be happy. And I don't care what forces were involved in its delayed birth (except for curiosity). But hell, I won't trust them. None of them.
bobvodka, it is pretty easy to trust Microsoft to push things forward. They seem to be the most powerful force in the game. So from my point of view you basically trust in their power. Which is possibly a good decision.
pudman, did I offend you in any way? If so, please forgive me. I'm here to express my opinion, just like anybody else. It's a discussion board, isn't it?
CatDog
No, not at all. I realize "why are you here?" sounds quite harsh. I'm just frustrated (or super-curious?) and hearing someone not sharing in that frustration-at-not-hearing-anything is, well, frustrating (exciting!). It gives me reasons to post! Yay!pudman, did I offend you in any way?
So join in the criticism please! I just know it's super-productive!
No no no! This is the wrong direction! Don't go towards the light of disinterest...!And I don't care what forces were involved in its delayed birth (except for curiosity)
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