Part of the Khronos Group
OpenGL.org

The Industry's Foundation for High Performance Graphics

from games to virtual reality, mobile phones to supercomputers

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 38

Thread: Upcoming pixel/register glEXT's, problems with DX8 Pixel Shaders, & more-

  1. #1
    Intern Newbie
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Nowhereland
    Posts
    38

    Upcoming pixel/register glEXT's, problems with DX8 Pixel Shaders, & more-

    Does anyone know about upcoming OpenGL extensions for new hardware? There have been many references to a _much_ needed 'Render-to-Texture' extension, but little else on new OpenGL extensions, particularly those that expose the pixel-processing power of upcoming chips, which will come with the DX8 pixel shaders.

    Considering that the *consumer* graphic accelerator biz has consolidated [really just 4 big players right? => Nvidia:ATI:VIA(via S3):Matrox], i hope that exposing cross-platform GL extensions will be a requisite to stay competitive. Although Windows is the $$primary$$ 3d PC platform, the tiny market of non DirectX platforms (linux/apple/cross-platform-titles) should be have some value for chip-makers that outweighs the costly engineering of driver/api_extension development.

    Unfortunately, nobody except Nvidia has really developed their GL capabilities. Despite repeated email petitions, ATI has yet to expose any Radeon pixel/register processing except a 'dot3' env, which is sad considering the potential of 'limited dependent texture reads' via their EVBM as well as the priority_ID (for Shadow-maps) and any register capabilities.

    Via NV_RegCombiners, Nvidia exposed capabilities not available in DX that reduce the #passes or enhance operations (additional attentuation, 16bit compare for Shadow-maps,etc.). Hopefully this chip-specific exposure continues for NV20 & X-Box.

    Since there are only 4 major chip-makers, it is simple for a software developer to write pixel-handling routines for each chipset/style-of-chip-capabilities (in fact, this really needs to happen in most 3d games/environments just to balance performance/visual-quality tradeoff). In the past, most chip vendors exposed an entire API(Glide,S3Metal,RRedline,etc.), not just an optional extension to a common API (OpenGL).

    I'm raising these issues because i need to stay with OpenGL, since it is _the_ choice for any cross-platform work. Although we spent considerable time playing with the new DX8 materials, there isn't enough new functionality to have 2 codebases (1 DX8 for Windows, 1 OpenGL for all others). More importantly, the new DX8 pixel shaders forecast some difficulties since they are costly to generate (i.e. recommended pre-compiled use).

    When rendering from a large database of dynamic 3d objects/materials, there is an enormous variety of possible shading methods. Many events in the world will change an object's 'shader' such as adding a highlight, x-ray movie-projection, burning, wet, or even consider a piece of shiny metal that gains a splattered dirt decal texture which also varies the specular shininess. The possible configurations are too large to be precomputed (& compiled as a fixed set of DX Shaders). But dynamically generating these shading methods into a set of register commands and/or multi-pass states or a 'run-time' pixel shader is feasible. That's what we do now for plain vanilla GL, dual-pass EXT_Env_Comb, NV_RegComb, etc. For programmable shaders, we will just have to treat them like textures and have a working 'uploaded & compiled' cache of current shaders. Yet we fear the compilation-time for creating/uploading a new shader will regularly interrupt the game world.

    Thus we are very curious if anyone out there can share/hint at upcoming plans for GL exposure and any pros/cons for programmble but highly-dynamic pixel-handling?

    Thanks for reading this lonnnnnng post and for any thoughts-


    [[PS-Chip-makers:: it'd be great to see you guys speaking out on this, which keeps the GL community enthusiastic to develop for your future chipsets. The 3d market is slowly evolving beyond just games! ]]

  2. #2
    Senior Member OpenGL Pro
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Santa Clara, CA
    Posts
    1,463

    Re: Upcoming pixel/register glEXT's, problems with DX8 Pixel Shaders, & more-

    We will continue to expose new features through extensions in OpenGL. There's plenty of great stuff planned.

    - Matt

  3. #3
    Junior Member Regular Contributor
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Thunder Bay,ON,Canada
    Posts
    178

    Re: Upcoming pixel/register glEXT's, problems with DX8 Pixel Shaders, & more-

    oooh Matt! Don't leave me drooling like this! Tell us everything!!
    -------------------------
    "Bad bad programmer! No Mountain Dew for you!"

  4. #4
    Intern Newbie
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Nowhereland
    Posts
    38

    Re: Upcoming pixel/register glEXT's, problems with DX8 Pixel Shaders, & more-

    Yeah Matt!

    Please tell us a bit more or at least if there are any plans for Nvidia's upcoming hardware to support dynamically created pixel-programs (or just further/enhanced Reg Combiners).

  5. #5
    Senior Member OpenGL Pro
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Santa Clara, CA
    Posts
    1,463

    Re: Upcoming pixel/register glEXT's, problems with DX8 Pixel Shaders, & more-

    You'll have to wait.

    - Matt

  6. #6
    Junior Member Regular Contributor
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Thunder Bay,ON,Canada
    Posts
    178

    Re: Upcoming pixel/register glEXT's, problems with DX8 Pixel Shaders, & more-

    Matt....you're evil.
    -------------------------
    "Bad bad programmer! No Mountain Dew for you!"

  7. #7
    Guest

    Re: Upcoming pixel/register glEXT's, problems with DX8 Pixel Shaders, & more-

    What kind of adoption of these extensions
    will there be by other hardware vendors,
    though?

    I mean, I can see how Matt's bosses would not
    want him to tell ATI how to correctly
    implement their version of NV_vertex_program,
    but that's really what has to happen for a
    technology which changes an engine to the
    core like that to take off in majority.

  8. #8
    Member Regular Contributor
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    B.C., Canada
    Posts
    397

    Re: Upcoming pixel/register glEXT's, problems with DX8 Pixel Shaders, & more-

    You'll have to wait.
    Until when?

    j

  9. #9
    Junior Member Regular Contributor
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Aix en Provence, France
    Posts
    182

    Re: Upcoming pixel/register glEXT's, problems with DX8 Pixel Shaders, & more-

    These vendor specific extension are the nightmare of the engine developper.
    You must make code that works on all current gfx cards and achieve similar effects.
    I think they better speed up the process of registering an official (ARB is it ?) extension for a specific feature, and hardware manufacturers should use the existing extensions for existing features.
    I don't think manufacturer specific extensions are good. No more ATI_ ... or NV_ .. !
    Examples :
    NV_texgen_reflection is now EXT_texgen_reflection and is use on both NVidia and RadeON cards.
    ATI_vertex_blend is now
    ARB_vertex_blend.

    Also, OpenGL should speed up releasing new OpenGL versions officially including the latest extensions ... like DirectX !

    But anyway, i like OpenGL's portability and will never use DirectX for that reason
    -----
    Paddy
    Software Engineer
    I/O Labs

  10. #10
    Junior Member Regular Contributor
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Thunder Bay,ON,Canada
    Posts
    178

    Re: Upcoming pixel/register glEXT's, problems with DX8 Pixel Shaders, & more-

    I totally agree on this point.I think the ARB should start standardizing these new extensions as soon as they can as well as coming out with newer versions of OpenGL.
    -------------------------
    "Bad bad programmer! No Mountain Dew for you!"

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •