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nukem
11-19-2003, 07:37 PM
I just saw this (http://www.xtremetechshow.com/shows/lg/media/lgcommercial.mp4) video showing suns new 3d window manager. I was thinking about if the open source community did something like this with OpenGL and would be able to replace X. It is my understanding the X is software rendered, but most people have a video card that can do some sort of hardware rendering so why not use it? The OpenGL window manager would be much faster on a computer that has hardware rendering and if it was fully compatible to X all apps should work seemlessly with it. The biggest problem I see is figuring out how to port every command from X to a new window manager.

What do you guys think?

nuke

[This message has been edited by nukem (edited 11-19-2003).]

vincoof
11-19-2003, 11:33 PM
I think you mess X, OpenGL and window managers. They are three different things, and none of them can replace the other.


I was thinking about if the open source community did something like this with OpenGL and would be able to replace X.
OpenGL can not replace X. X handles much more than graphics, for instance sound.


It is my understanding the X is software rendered, but most people have a video card that can do some sort of hardware rendering so why not use it?
X is hardware rendered if you have the correct drivers installed. X is only rendered in software by default, that is before you installed the driver, just like Windows do.



The OpenGL window manager would be much faster on a computer that has hardware rendering and if it was fully compatible to X all apps should work seemlessly with it.
Actually window managers can use OpenGL if they want. That was the goal of the next Enlightenment major release as far as I know.



The biggest problem I see is figuring out how to port every command from X to a new window manager.
This sentence makes me think that you completely messes up X and window managers.
Unlike Windows, X is not directly connected to the windows manager.
Managers use X, but X doesn't rely on window managers. You can even have a X server running without window manger (though it's a bit boring since you can not move or resize the windows!).


Sorry for the harsh post, but I just wanted to clear some things out. No offense intended !

nukem
11-20-2003, 01:08 PM
I wasnt trying to mess X and a window manager up. The plan really would be to have a window manager that dose not need X to be run and uses OpenGL to render everything.



OpenGL can not replace X. X handles much more than graphics, for instance sound.


Dosnt a sound server like OSS or ALSA handle sound? OpenGL would only be used for input, I know it cannt do things like sound, keyboard, mouse.



Actually window managers can use OpenGL if they want. That was the goal of the next Enlightenment major release as far as I know.


In what version of X is there going to be all this OpenGL support? 4.4?

What I ment by that is make it so any app that needs X to run could run on this new X alternative.



The biggest problem I see is figuring out how to port every command from X to a new window manager.


Nuke

vincoof
11-21-2003, 03:01 AM
I'm not sure the point of replacing X here.

- Would you like a OpenGL-oriented window manager ?
This is going to be in there soon, and Sun showed some hard work has already been done in this way.

- Would you like a X-like server with a light interface that allows faster OpenGL apps and games ?
Some work has already been done and tested by quake fanatics who wanted to get the best framerate possible wihtout the heavy X interface. X is overpowerful but eats lots of resources for it to work.

- Or would you like to use OpenGL to replace all the X's graphics layer ?
That's not possible. OpenGL always rely on a graphical server which is either X11 or Windows or anything else (thus GLX, WGL, AGL, etc).

- For more options, feel free to post the http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

nukem
11-21-2003, 11:44 AM
- Would you like a OpenGL-oriented window manager ?
This is going to be in there soon, and Sun showed some hard work has already been done in this way.

That window manager is going to be closed source, you will have to pay for, and I heard will only work on the redhat/sun linux distro.



- Or would you like to use OpenGL to replace all the X's graphics layer ?
That's not possible. OpenGL always rely on a graphical server which is either X11 or Windows or anything else (thus GLX, WGL, AGL, etc).

I remember seeing long ago code that would run OGL without X installed.

FermatSpiral
11-21-2003, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by nukem:
I remember seeing long ago code that would run OGL without X installed.

Over SVGA in a 3DFX card, probably. I remember having done that. But that's not either OpenGL by itself; it was not OpenGL actually, it was a GL wrapper over glide over SVGA, if I remember well.

nukem
11-22-2003, 10:01 AM
Ya im not sure what it was, all I know was it was 3d. But still you could recode the parts of X needed to run OGL.

richardve
11-23-2003, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by nukem:
[B]
That window manager is going to be closed source, you will have to pay for, and I heard will only work on the redhat/sun linux distro.


Wrong, it's going to be Open Source.


Second, there's already an alternative for XFree86 (not X): the freedesktop.org X server (from Keith Packard), which also allows to have translucent windows and apply transforms to windows (not yet, but it should become possible with a custom or modified window manager and Cairo/OpenGL (or so)).

nukem
11-23-2003, 11:19 AM
Didnt freedesktop.org fork from X? Anyway since people did bring up the fact that OpenGL needs some sort of window manager to run on you could always recode that part.

richardve
11-26-2003, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by nukem:
Didnt freedesktop.org fork from X?

FDO-X is based on KDrive (Keith Packards lightweight X server), which is/was (originally) based on XFree86.
But most of the server is (going to be) rewritten.

And another good thing is that Xlib will probably be destroyed (finally!) and replaced with XCB and its compatibility layer for old Xlib apps.

12-04-2003, 01:13 PM
Hi guys,
I recently discovered that DirectFB supports some cards (mainly Matrox and Ati) with DRI without boring with X server. You might have a look at DirectFBGL. In the same field, give a try to Mesa, which supports some fbdev/DRI.

my 2 cents

Obli
12-13-2003, 09:40 AM
Anyway, I would like to see an alternative from X, not necessarly compatible. After all, some X functionalities are not used most of the time (support for strange professional devices comes to mind).

I have a friend really involved in the linux community which says that X has some problems here and there.
Anyway, as far as I know, the X specification is available just like the GL spec is (not sure of that, I just hope to be correct) so I would be somewhat happy to see a totally different from scratch X server. However, considering the effort involved, I have to realize this is quite unlikely to happen.
My apologies if this is off topic.

lulf
12-13-2003, 02:51 PM
Well, there is a new X-server project called Y:
http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~mbt99/Y/report/MarkThomas.pdf

pkaler
12-13-2003, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Obli:
I have a friend really involved in the linux community which says that X has some problems here and there.


When he says that X has some problems, he probably means that XFree86 has some problems.

The protocol is very good. The implementation needs some work.

Keep an eye on Xouvert. It is a branch of XFree86. http://www.xouvert.org/