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fritzlang
02-01-2003, 07:22 AM
What I hear is so ultra-tragic. Please cry a tear in the name of mankind, science, futurism, machines and all that. Space exploration and graphics programming triggers the same fashination-neurons in my head, they are both top entrys on my list of meaningful things in life. This his is so sad.
:-(

dabeav
02-01-2003, 07:40 AM
Glasses up for our fallen brothers and sisters. Let there souls be rested, and there memories not forgoten. Those who risk and (some times loose) there lives to better man kind, and advance humanity will always be the true heros of our lives.

V-man
02-01-2003, 07:59 AM
Absolutely terrible news.
The world just lost another one of its most precious resources.

knackered
02-01-2003, 09:29 AM
Has this months cocaine crop been destroyed or something?

davepermen
02-01-2003, 09:32 AM
for the ones dreaming of space, its a tragecy. for the ones living in reality, its 7 deaths, wich costed billions of money. if it would've been spend for other things than a stupid dream, those 7 would be still alive, and you could help millions on this world, wich die because rich countries live in dreams.

anyways, i like to dream, too, and i feel very sorry for the 7. it hurt me, too, when i got the news. still, currenlty i hear it everywhere, as if it would be the only tragecy existing in this world, while people prepare for a war wich will cost thousands its live, while people suffer of food and water the whole day, while i see people dying on our streets, etc..

and btw, why is it not OT ?

fritzlang
02-01-2003, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by davepermen:
and btw, why is it not OT ?[/B]

Writing a graphics engine or flying in space, the driving force (should) origin from the same emotional rush, the need to create and experience new things - explore unknown areas push the envelope. People who disagree would simply license a Q3 engine and
get it done asap.

You are living in the most fashinating time ever in mankind, greatly beacuse of poeple at MIT, NASA, INTEL, ID etc are pushing the envelope. Thats why, IMO, this != OT.


Originally posted by knackered:
Has this months cocaine crop been destroyed or something?
What?

[This message has been edited by fritzlang (edited 02-01-2003).]

knackered
02-01-2003, 11:55 AM
Just found out about it - you mean the space shuttle.
I agree with davepermen - it's only 7 people. It's bad, yes, but I didn't see a topic created for the 9 people killed in the australian train crash a few days ago.
Get a grip, jesus. It's called life.

dorbie
02-01-2003, 11:57 AM
It's OT, but it is tragic. A stunning accident. I always thought they had reentry licked, now this. As for dreams vs lives, America exports more foreign humanitarian aid than any other nation. They've earned the right to dream IMHO. Things like human space exploration enrich millions of lives and are part of what makes life worth living.

[This message has been edited by dorbie (edited 02-01-2003).]

dorbie
02-01-2003, 12:04 PM
P.S. Dave, have the courage of your convictions, sell your computer and send the proceeds to save a life or two in Africa instead of using it to tell others to do the equivalent.

zed
02-01-2003, 12:48 PM
>>I always thought they had reentry licked<<

the tiles (used during reentry) have never been 100%

>>America exports more foreign humanitarian aid than any other nation<<

i thought u were wrong + it was japan but looking at new figures i do see u are correct.

>>Almost all rich nations have constantly failed to reach this 0.7% target.
For example, USA's aid, in terms of percentage of their GDP is already lowest of any industrialized nation in the world.

Since 1992, Japan had been the largest donor of aid, in terms of raw dollars. That was until 2001 when the United States reclaimed that position, a year that also saw Japan's amount of aid drop by nearly 4 billion dollars (as tables and charts below will also show).<<
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

new zealand has done much better than the us i see, 0.25% is bugger all.

>>Originally posted by knackered:
Has this months cocaine crop been destroyed or something?<<

hehe http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

personally im a great believer in spacetravel (space, the final frontier, these ... ) unfortunatly this incident will most likely harm progress.

we are actually in a mini darkages at present. whats happened 1957 spucnik then yuri gagarin in space -> 1969 man on the moon. then what?
sweet f.ck all

what we need to do.

build a mountain in the north of oz (about 20km high) stick a big gun on it + shoot things into space (not ppl of course). actually that black + white movie with the bullet in the end of the moon was the right idea (based on a hgwells story IIRC but he used airships to get to the moon anyways)

darkages u betta believe it boys.

dorbie
02-01-2003, 01:00 PM
Percentage of GDP is a misleading metric since US is significantly more productive than many other nations. But that is not the only factor, GDP measures different things in different nations and in the US for example GDP is used to measure some things that don't actually produce revenues. For example domestic expenditure on cleanup of pollution of all sorts and activities resulting from the EPA are included but don't generate any revenues that might contribute to the bottom line, in fact they are pure overhead and drain the coffers, not the other way around. Another example, the space program itself, it's overhead, it costs but the value of stuff it produces is assessed and added to GDP, you spend money and you INCREASE GDP, getting squeezed at both ends. Per capita may be a better metric but not entirely. Raw dollars contributed is significant IMHO. Naysay it if it makes you feel better about your local paltry contribution. Private contributions flow from the US also, personal charitable donations to church and humanitarian organizations seem far more significant here than the various locations I grew up in in the UK, but then again most people I knew were skint in the UK.

[This message has been edited by dorbie (edited 02-01-2003).]

zen
02-01-2003, 01:52 PM
for the ones dreaming of space, its a tragecy. for the ones living in reality, its 7 deaths, wich costed billions of money. if it would've been spend for other things than a stupid dream, those 7 would be still alive, and you could help millions on this world, wich die because rich countries live in dreams.


right on, but why be so pissed at space exploration?Although I haven't seen much use in it ,especially compared with scientific research equipment used on the surface of the earth,like (also very expensive) particle accelerators etc.But at least these dollars are spent on a novel(?) purpose ,our desire to learn.I can't see how the would be seen as wasted money when so many billions are wasted on guns and missiles and software to guide them(IIRC more than 90%,98% I think, of the overall software research/production has been paid for by the US Dept. of Defence). Except of course for the fact that space exploration or nuclear physics are in part(mostly) a 'front cover' for the quest of the ultimate weapon but that is another matter.Get rid of those wasted dollars and if the world is still hungry we can consider getting rid of scientific research.

Yet I agree with you.A loss of a human life(or 7 of them) is always a tragedy but I can't stand this thread's attempt to make an epic out of it.And as you say war is preparing and thousands of lives will be lost and cities wasted (and billions wasted on the bombs that will waste them) and I bet you all will be talking about per-pixel lighting then as you were before.It won't be such a tragedy because the ones killed won't be shooting into space but minding their own bussiness.They won't be heroes, just casualties of war.But that's ok ,because I'm sure the US will give them humanitarian aid after destroying their homes so you'll all have the right to sleep and dream peacefully.Dream on...



You are living in the most fashinating time ever in mankind, greatly beacuse of poeple at MIT, NASA, INTEL, ID etc are pushing the envelope. Thats why, IMO, this != OT.

I especially like INTEL in that list.Lovely CPU's,really.Nice arch compared to those stupid sparcs and alphas and mips.Even AMD managed to get more performance out of less mhz.



P.S. Dave, have the courage of your convictions, sell your computer and send the proceeds to save a life or two in Africa instead of using it to tell others to do the equivalent.

Oh please...why should he be the one to pay for other people's f**kups.He's not responsible for the condition in Africa(unless he somehow is,that is), and it wouldn't even help remedy the problem.



Has this months cocaine crop been destroyed or something?

best post in this thread(IMHO always)

davepermen
02-01-2003, 02:02 PM
i'm not pissed of by the deaths. i honour them for their work, and feel sad about their death.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-2369340,00.html

have i seen a bush text about those people? they died today as well. about nobody cares. (news.google.com at least had them at one point in. half the page is filled with the nasa stuff)..

the dream of space will not die because of this accident, nor will scientific research. every researcher knows they just did their job, and they knew of their danger.

and yes i think this money can be used for bether things. dreams are okay. but this world has a reality we have to care about. we stand short in front of a war now. people are dying, not only those astronauts died today.
and for all the ones telling me we should not stop research and spend the money to support the current problems on the world. well yes i think we should. research brings the rich further away from the rest of the world. instead of flying into space, we could fly to africa. or where ever else on planet. i see so much adverts of u.s. for aid, help, and all the stuff. still i don't see any real work done to help the world problems really. yes, sending money down will not help. but using the research power to solve food problems down there would help. using research power to know that war against irak is stupid would help as well. using research power to find reasons for problems on this world, like terrorism, like poverty, like aids, etc, does help.

and once we solved the problems we currently have on our list, we can go further, and try to solve the mystery of space.

still.. may god bless those 7. i feel sorry for them to get abused in that much hyping and crying and stupid flamewars on the web, tv, etc currently. they just did their job. and they did it to do something good. they may rest in peace.

dorbie
02-01-2003, 02:28 PM
Zen, oh please right back at you. You've completely missed what I was saying.

I'm not advocating sacraficing the 'stuff' in your life to help others as an option. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of criticising others who don't when you're no better. We all have dreams, aspirations and a standard of living that would have been fit for a king a century or two ago.

If our ancestors had simply given over all the product of industry to the poor houses so many things that help so many people today would not exist.

[This message has been edited by dorbie (edited 02-01-2003).]

zen
02-01-2003, 02:29 PM
yes, sending money down will not help. but using the research power to solve food problems down there would help. using research power to know that war against irak is stupid would help as well. using research power to find reasons for problems on this world, like terrorism, like poverty, like aids, etc, does help.

Exactly but space exploration is no the ultimate purpose of research.Knowledge is(at least to scientists not governments).And knowledge and education is the only way I see of resolving these problems.Money there is enough.It's wasted daily on futile wars as you mention.Will to solve these problems I do not see.Maybe they musn't be solved.Maybe someone(like say Nike wich comes to mind) profits from them.Maybe the rest of us don't know, or don't care.
Maybe that's the problem?

I hope I don't have to sell my computer now to support my arguments.It's the only thing I ever bought(besides necessary clothes and food etc.) and I've really used it to learn and create as have most of us here.And I refuse to be guilty about it.

[edit]
dorbie:I didn't mean to offend you in any way but... hypocrisy?Why should he be guilty about a few dollars spent worthily?Others steal and create this situation and he should be the one to pay for it with the movey he(his parents' whatever) earnt just to have the right to feel bad about it without beeing considered a hypocrit?Then we should all accept and even like the situation I guess.Or maybe I'm getting this wrong again.
[edit2](damn it... all those edits make this seem like IRC all of a sudden)



We all have dreams, aspirations and a standard of living that would have been fit for a king a century or two ago.

If our ancestors had simply given over all the product of industry to the poor houses so many things that help so many people today would not exist.


If that's what you meant then I agree with you.The progress of mankind takes money and there's plenty of other money spent in the regress of mankind that would be more than enough.But that doesn't make dave a hypocrit.

[This message has been edited by zen (edited 02-01-2003).]

davepermen
02-01-2003, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by dorbie:
I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of criticising others who don't when you're no better.

i'm not a country, makes me a little different (or makes your statement sound rather childish actually..).

i support every 3rd world helping movement of my country, and i would not support my country to spend billions on war and space racing instead of 3rd world (and the own countries problems, of course). i am from switzerland btw.

i don't think selling my pc to send the money down would help anyone (as the bill i would get for sending the money would cost more than the actual money anyways). but support in education, support for uniting even those countries with our rich countries here, and science work to solve energy, food supply and war problems are definitely worth to support. and thats what i do.

Humus
02-01-2003, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by dorbie:
Percentage of GDP is a misleading metric since US is significantly more productive than many other nations. But that is not the only factor, GDP measures different things in different nations and in the US for example GDP is used to measure some things that don't actually produce revenues. For example domestic expenditure on cleanup of pollution of all sorts and activities resulting from the EPA are included but don't generate any revenues that might contribute to the bottom line, in fact they are pure overhead and drain the coffers, not the other way around. Another example, the space program itself, it's overhead, it costs but the value of stuff it produces is assessed and added to GDP, you spend money and you INCREASE GDP, getting squeezed at both ends. Per capita may be a better metric but not entirely. Raw dollars contributed is significant IMHO. Naysay it if it makes you feel better about your local paltry contribution. Private contributions flow from the US also, personal charitable donations to church and humanitarian organizations seem far more significant here than the various locations I grew up in in the UK, but then again most people I knew were skint in the UK.

Counting raw dollars aren't particularly fair. Denmark (which top the list) with its 5 million people and 1,599 million dollar obviously does more than the US with its 250 million people and 10,884 million dollars. Not saying that the US is bad in any way though.

Coriolis
02-01-2003, 03:24 PM
A lot of people die every die in every nation. Death is always tragic, but it is not always news, since it is so commonplace. It is news when the people who died are remarkable or the circumstances of their death is remarkable... both are true in the case of the seven astronauts who died. It is silly to be bitter that the news media decides that a space shuttle breaking up during reentry is less newsworthy than a train crash in Australia or Africa, just because fewer lives were lost.

It is also foolish to think that President Bush should give public comments on all accidental deaths around the world; that would trivialize the comments he does make when the circumstances warrant. This is a tragic set of deaths for the United States, so its leader performs his duties as a leader. This is not to say that he is not saddened over anybody's death except these 7 astronauts; nobody can say that but Mr. Bush himself. It is merely to say that he doesn't have any official responsibility in relation to those other deaths.

I won't defend all of the spending decisions made by our government our citizens. In fact, a lot of them make really stupid and selfish financial decisions. I know I've done so from time to time. However, cutting all space funding or military funding to redirect those finances would be a silly overreaction. Rather, I place the blame on the wealthy people all across the world who squander their financial blessing on their selfish whims and desires rather than on helping their fellow man. The US has more than its share of wealthy citizens, and so it shoulders more of the blame, but the fault truly lies at the personal level rather than the national.

War with Iraq is not on President Bush's agenda, nor Prime Minister Blair's, nor the leadership of any of the other UN member nations. The removal from power of a very dangerous dictator and the disarmament of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction is what they want. They would prefer a peaceful solution, but after 12 years of constant defiance, these leaders are prepared to use drastic measures to accomplish this end, for the betterment of Iraq, the Middle East, and the rest of the world. It is obvious that Iraq is trying to secretly acquire weapons of mass destruction, and that Hussein has a history of international aggression. He's even used chemical weapons against his own people. Many more lives are likely to be lost due to inaction if we allow him to remain in power until he obtains these weapons and decides to use them.

daveperman, your response to this thread is pretty reprehensible. zen and knackered answered better, but still disrespectfully. I cannot see any difference to what you have posted here than if you had gone to a funeral where somebody had died in a car wreck hit by a drunk driver, and told the people there "If you had spent the money on the car for people starving in Africa instead, then your loved one would still be alive, so that the death is your own stupid selfish fault. And besides, 40 people just died in a train wreck in Africa, so why bother mourning this one person? I feel sorry about this guy dying and all, but you guys really should get your priorities straight. May he rest in peace, and bless you all." There are times and places for such dissensions, and part of maturity is knowing the difference. If you cannot yet tell the difference, "it is better to not say anything and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

If you can't be respectful of the dead, at least have the decency to leave alone those who are trying to.

davepermen
02-01-2003, 03:38 PM
i told several times that i do respect those who died due the accident. i simply get annoyed by the big hype of these deaths, and how much got hurt because of it. its 7 that died, so about 7 families cried about the loss of a family member, and a lot of their friends cried, too, and will continue to do so.

but i see tons of people crying oh no, my dreams got hurt, space is everything for me, and they don't look at this world, realising that all this nasa thing is not about realising startrek, but using the money for.. stuff. its really tons of money that get spent to explore space, and i don't see much use in it.

and if now a car accident would happen, because of some drunken stupid bitch, and all the world would cry, and bring tons of news about it (remember lady diana?), then i would say the same: get over it, feel sorry for her, may god bless her. but remember there's much more on this world than this one tragecy.
and thats all i say currently. and, that nasa has too much money to bomb peoples into space, and the military gets too much money to now move into war, than money gets spent to try to solve real world problems right now.

it is about irak btw. no mather how bush playes it around and talking about most dangerous politics going on there, building up of massdestruction and anything. he hasn't prooved it, but he prooves to fix the worlds eyes on an imaginary topic instead of looking at real problems. irak is just another country like about tens, houndreds of other countries on this world (or not http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif). he has to killemall then. and that thought is stupid. so is the thought that he has the right to kill saddam. (in fact, he tells us to remove saddam. but what we get is war, people. war. that is not killing or removing one person, that is killing thousands of innocent, thats about erasing the place to live for several ten/houndred thousands. its about suffering and killing of people who only live, and that because of one person you want to kill? stupid. war is stupid. supporting war is stupid. so supporting bush is currently stupid)

back to the topic, i said yet i feel sorry for the ones who died. and i feel sorry about the flamewars that got created because of them. why can't we let them rest in peace like other peoples that died?

roffe
02-01-2003, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by davepermen:

i support every 3rd world helping movement of my country, and i would not support my country to spend billions on war and space racing instead of 3rd world (and the own countries problems, of course). i am from switzerland btw.

I'm sure you knew that a lot of this "space racing" that you refer to, is research on international level for diseases that cant always be studied on earth. Diseases that might hit you, me and everyone else.

Coriolis
02-01-2003, 03:48 PM
You say you respect them at various points in your posts. If you didn't notice, I gave you credit for that much in my last post. Yet the remainder of each of these posts contradicts this statement. If my last post didn't make you understand how (and your latest post supports this hypothesis), then it is pointless for me to try any further, and any attempt will just derail this thread further. So all I ask is that you please leave the remainder of this thread alone, and let those who wish to respect the dead do so without your protestations.

dorbie
02-01-2003, 03:53 PM
Humus, you are wrong, it doesn't do more. You may believe it gives more per capita but it is plain wrong to say it does more. I for one don't forget that the Largesse of most European countries would not be possible today without the USA.

In anycase, this is too off the beaten path. I'm bailing on this thread. No country is without it's flaws. There's way too much self righteous preaching & finger pointing by political self interests in Europe these days. Just don't buy into it all.

Peace be upon you.

zen
02-01-2003, 03:53 PM
daveperman, your response to this thread is pretty reprehensible. zen and knackered answered better, but still disrespectfully.

Disrespectful?Just because we want to see things for what they are?None of our posts disagreed with the fact that 7 dead human beeings isn't sad.I merely disagree with all that epic stuff about heroes and mankind.If you want to romanticize be my guest but it has nothing to do with respect for death.

So the US have the right to bomb countries for the sake of their inhabitants and mankind.What about all the other countries which allready have weapons of mass destruction?What about the ones which have allready used them?Are they less dangerous?Can they be 'controlled'?Maybe we should bomb them all...

V-man
02-01-2003, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by dorbie:
If our ancestors had simply given over all the product of industry to the poor houses so many things that help so many people today would not exist.


Probably true, and let me add something.

Why don't poor countries help themselves? Why does the west have to send people to teach other people how to create a well, about agriculture, basic math, ...

The space shuttle represents a whole lot of though and effort, hundreds of years of science. It's what we do and the people in poor countries should do what they do.

If we were to put stuff like this on hold and sent help for the needy until there would be no more of them, then how long do you suppose it would take for mankind to go into space?

dorbie
02-01-2003, 04:13 PM
OK really last post.

V-man, the problem with your last sentence is the assumption that giving all indefinitely would eliminate the needy. It's called Marxist communism; from each according to their means to each according to their needs. The needy are to be found everywhere, giving without bounds does nothing to help the needy, it just drags everyone down.

As JFK said, "A rising tide raises all boats", what we keep and invest raises standards for all and we can ultimately afford to give more, or better yet trade more so *productive* people everywhere benefit.

JONSKI
02-01-2003, 04:25 PM
A similar discussion is happening on another of my frequented forums.

http://www.rx7club.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=154357

rgpc
02-01-2003, 05:35 PM
Political/GDP/Humanitarium crap aside (not to mention the all too common "Space exploration is a waste of money" crap) and the "Why are these seven so special - surely someone else died today", may the 7 who lost their lives rest in peace and may peace be given to those who are suffering the loss of their loved ones.

Some points on the utter crap in this post...

1. The space "industry" is responsible for a HUGE number of developments which have benefitted the world, from construction techniques to medical technologies to food/water creation and purification.

2. The leader of Iraq is single handedly responsible for GENOCIDE. The people of Iraq deserve a peaceful existence without the dictatorship which is bringing them so much hardship and suffering. Not to mention the huge volumes of completely crap biological and chemical agents hidden somewhere in the country. All Iraq has to do is hand over the chemicals and the whole war thing will go away.

3. Humanitarian aid is useless if you're giving it to the warlords that have caused the suffering in the first place. "Poor" countries are generally ruled by the rich minority who, through oppression and senseless wars, destroy the very country they rule (Somalia for example).

4. Lots of people are crying because lots of cameras were pointing at the shuttle while it broke up. Mentioning that the derailment in Aus didn't get the same publicity and making a comparison between the nine that died on that accident and the 7 on the Shuttle fails to notice that the 9000+ people who died in auto accidents in the States each year get virtually no publicity throughout the world. On top of the cameras there's also the rarity of space travel.


I've said my 2c now please stop crapping on about political agendas and holier-than-thou humanitarian crap and let this thread disappear off the list.


[This message has been edited by rgpc (edited 02-01-2003).]

Humus
02-01-2003, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by dorbie:
Humus, you are wrong, it doesn't do more. You may believe it gives more per capita but it is plain wrong to say it does more. I for one don't forget that the Largesse of most European countries would not be possible today without the USA.

In anycase, this is too off the beaten path. I'm bailing on this thread. No country is without it's flaws. There's way too much self righteous preaching & finger pointing by political self interests in Europe these days. Just don't buy into it all.

Peace be upon you.

You obviously misunderstood my post. IT doesn't do more those 1,599 million than those 10,884 dollar, but THEY (the Danes) do more than the US. In other word, what I'm saying is that the average Dane contributes more than the average US citizen (despite the fact that the average US citizen is more wealthy than the average Dane).
Statements like "America exports more foreign humanitarian aid than any other nation" and complaining about other contries "local paltry contribution" is very unfair. There's no way the Danes are able to compete with the US in terms of raw dollars due to their small population. It's easy for a 250 million country to look at absolute numbers and claim greatness. The splitting of the world into countries is pretty arbitrary, I could sum up all what Europe contributes in raw dollars and feel good about myself because of how the Europe contribution compares to the US. But that would be as unfair too given that Europe has more people than the US.
Except for that I don't disagree with you on any points. I don't think that sending loads of money or food to the 3rd world is a longterm solution either. It's better to contribute by expanding or moving industries and production plants over there to employ people such that they can get their own economy up and running. But this is an OT branch from an OT thread, so it's a pretty useless discussion anyway.

MrShoe
02-01-2003, 07:24 PM
Pah, when will the USA learn, Space Shuttles are so utterly crap when compared to rockets. When you get past the novelty of the fact that they can be reused, you see that they cost MORE per launch than a rocket, are far far more expensive to build in the first place, then there is the maintenance, and i dont think they can carry as much cargo as a large rocket. The Russian Proton rocket has a 100% record, has never failed, and has a far far better cost per kg for launch than a shuttle...

zeckensack
02-01-2003, 07:26 PM
I would have joined the moaning, but then this came upon my eyes:

Originally posted by dorbie:
It's OT, but it is tragic. A stunning accident. I always thought they had reentry licked, now this. As for dreams vs lives, America exports more foreign humanitarian aid than any other nation. They've earned the right to dream IMHO. Things like human space exploration enrich millions of lives and are part of what makes life worth living.

[This message has been edited by dorbie (edited 02-01-2003).]

dorbie (and the rest of you 'god bless America' folks, please go somewhere else for a moment),
America nowadays also destroys more freedom than any other nation. You make me sick. Serious.
Not because you are sorry for them, I am too. But because you (may I say so: typically) put it above everthing else. Bah.
Your nation goes to war over what? Nothing but vintage suspicion and irrational blabberings. Think about that for a moment before calling for further blessings and strangers' pity.

Coriolis
02-01-2003, 08:23 PM
I liked this board and the people on it, until this thread showed the character of so many of the posters. Can't you take your petty political differences and hatred of America someplace more appropriate than a tribute to the recently deceased? Would you interrupt a eulogy to say that it was too flattering or one-sided anywhere except under the anonymous safety of a messageboard? If you disapprove, at least have the decency to stay out of this thread. Make an "America sucks and Bush is a warmongering fool" thread for all I care, and complain to your heart's content in there.

chxfryer
02-01-2003, 09:16 PM
We didnt ask to have 2 important building and thousands of lives lost on 9-11. They woke a beast and there is hell to pay.

iNsaNEiVaN
02-01-2003, 10:12 PM
A freaky thing is that for Physics class, the day before the accident, I wrote a paper discussing the effects of friction and entry angle during atmosphere re-entry. Now this http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/frown.gif

zed
02-01-2003, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by chxfryer:
We didnt ask to have 2 important building and thousands of lives lost on 9-11. They woke a beast and there is hell to pay.

hehe http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif nice one (oh wait ..)

mr shoe is correct the space shuttle is just a mastabatory rocket, in practal terms its bollux.

what are spacerockets ?
basically a spacecapsule stuck atop a huge bomb
(blackadder voice) well that sounds very safe.

>>Can't you take your petty political differences and hatred of America someplace more appropriate than a tribute to the recently deceased<<

yeah but he started it

i wonder if we'll be seeing model columbia fireworks this year at guyfaukes, i got one of the spaceshuttle challanger ones a few years ago. unfortunatly unlike its namesake it didnt rise into the air before exploding in a blaze of glory. it just sort of sat on the ground spitting out fireballs (like a impotent roman candle) http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/frown.gif bloody thing cost about 10 dollars

Julien Cayzac
02-02-2003, 02:52 AM
Originally posted by knackered:
I agree with davepermen - it's only 7 people. It's bad, yes, but I didn't see a topic created for the 9 people killed in the australian train crash a few days ago.


I agree with both of you guys.
Not to mention they were trained military crew, earning thousands $$ a month precisely for risking their lifes.
It's surely sad for their families, but the guys knew the risks and this job was their own choice, so why should we care?

Julien.

davepermen
02-02-2003, 03:23 AM
Originally posted by V-man:
Why don't poor countries help themselves? Why does the west have to send people to teach other people how to create a well, about agriculture, basic math, ...
1) because our richness and knowledge is by a big part based on abusing those poor countries. slavery, wars, and other abuses. overrunning of foreign terrytorry to steal all resources, etc. we have stolen their richness over quite some time, and we still do (now we go to kill a country because we want oil to be cheaper.. oh wait, its because its an evil country.. not the oil..)

2) because this forum is based on the same thought: sharing. this forum would not work if everyone who knows something would hold it back. those countries indeed ask for help, like people in here ask for help. we do help those in here, and it does not hurt us in any way. i never said we have to step back to let them be equal on the evolutionary way to get rich. but we could stop to run further away and using their shoes to run that fast.

3) because all i want is peace and a happy live on this whole world. that will never happen as long as people are not equally rich/wealthy or how ever called.

anyways. its the same with the capitalistic thinking people. capitalism is okay, as every other system. there's just the problem that those people get overly egoistic, always looking away from the wrong/illegal things their country does, only looking at their own satisfaction, and the fun in tv.

anyways. i respect you all, you've proven to not only think capitalistic in here, but instead like humans.

per head, the u.s. does not do that much or the world. and what it takes from the world is actually more. currently. i hope it changes (but i see currently war comming.. how stupid can people be to support in the 3rd millenium still war over other solutions?)

anyways, may god bless you all. follow your hearts, not the mathematical thoughts you can have.

Humus
02-02-2003, 03:47 AM
Originally posted by chxfryer:
We didnt ask to have 2 important building and thousands of lives lost on 9-11. They woke a beast and there is hell to pay.

Who did? Iraq?

knackered
02-02-2003, 03:55 AM
The originator of this thread:
What I hear is so ultra-tragic. Please cry a tear in the name of mankind, science, futurism, machines and all that. Space exploration and graphics programming triggers the same fashination-neurons in my head, they are both top entrys on my list of meaningful things in life. This his is so sad


I would say that this space shuttle flight was the lifetime dream of everyone aboard. It's safe to say considering there are queues of people willing to part with their fortunes in order to get the same opportunity. Heck, I would love to do the same, even given the risks.
They were not acting as selflessly as is being implied.

BTW, I'm taken aback with the abuse of the term "the nation is in a state of mourning". What superlatives are your media going to use for a genuine tragedy? Presumably shrills of white noise?

P.S. USA please do not provoke a 3rd world war in order to bolster your faultering economy. I'm sure you can find other forms of energy with some investment (cut back on the space shuttles maybe?) http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

Adrian
02-02-2003, 04:29 AM
Once again certain people hijack a thread about a tragic event for their own political agenda. This happened with the WTC thread and I found it quite sick then. If you want to have a rant about the US start another thread.

[This message has been edited by Adrian (edited 02-02-2003).]

HS
02-02-2003, 04:33 AM
Originally posted by Adrian:
Once again certain people hijack a thread about a tragic event for their own political agenda. This happened with the WTC thread and I found it quite sick then. If you want to have a rant about the US start another thread.


I'll 2nd that.

Nutty
02-02-2003, 05:28 AM
I think we need to gain a little perspective here. Its only 7 ppl, that all knew the risks they were taking in the 1st place.

More children die every minute from starvation. I think the only reason its all over the news soo much, is because its a blow to America's pride.

V-man
02-02-2003, 06:19 AM
Originally posted by Nutty:
I think we need to gain a little perspective here. Its only 7 ppl, that all knew the risks they were taking in the 1st place.

More children die every minute from starvation. I think the only reason its all over the news soo much, is because its a blow to America's pride.



Not many people will disagree with that, because it is a fact that occurs every year, year after year. There are many reasons to hate America (hate Canada as well if you wish, I'm canadian actually)

But understand this. The NASA represents something worthwhile for some of us. It shouldn't be just about america. It's international.

Some people here seem to be saying "who cares"

Why dont you complain about Pakistan's nuclear tests. How many poor people are over there?
What about China? They were planning to build a nuclear submarrine with the aid of french engineers. The engineers were killed. China also has a space program you know.

The list of human stupiditity goes on.

fritzlang
02-02-2003, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by V-man:
The list of human stupiditity goes on.


It sure does.
COLUMBIA is (was) on the other list, along with OPENGL, which was the purpose of this thread.

zeckensack
02-02-2003, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by Coriolis:
I liked this board and the people on it, until this thread showed the character of so many of the posters. Can't you take your petty political differences and hatred of America someplace more appropriate than a tribute to the recently deceased? Would you interrupt a eulogy to say that it was too flattering or one-sided anywhere except under the anonymous safety of a messageboard? If you disapprove, at least have the decency to stay out of this thread. Make an "America sucks and Bush is a warmongering fool" thread for all I care, and complain to your heart's content in there.

If I don't agree with you, I'm your enemy, right? Get a grip, mate.

knackered
02-02-2003, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by Coriolis:
I liked this board and the people on it, until this thread showed the character of so many of the posters. Can't you take your petty political differences and hatred of America someplace more appropriate than a tribute to the recently deceased? Would you interrupt a eulogy to say that it was too flattering or one-sided anywhere except under the anonymous safety of a messageboard? If you disapprove, at least have the decency to stay out of this thread. Make an "America sucks and Bush is a warmongering fool" thread for all I care, and complain to your heart's content in there.

I'm pretty disgusted that you seem to be playing down the importance of the current political climate, Coriolis. Your passionate defense of a thread aimed at giving tribute to the death of 7 priviliged people is inappropriate, if you ask me. You should direct some of that anger towards your own government, just as I have been doing towards my own government (UK).
This whole 'unpleasantness' in the gulf is far more sinistar and significant than you seem to realise, and about as relevant to the columbia accident as this thread is to opengl.


[This message has been edited by knackered (edited 02-02-2003).]

Elixer
02-02-2003, 01:19 PM
You know, this is the main reason why people don't frequent this board more often. No moderator to take care of these things.

By skimming through all that above, which is mostly just BS, we can say that we agree to disagree, and some of you seem to be lacking oxygen or something.

Put a fork in it, this thread should be dead.

dorbie
02-02-2003, 03:22 PM
The grief over 7 astronauts has nothing to do with American pride taking a blow. It's a human tragedy. When Princess Dianna died it was one person but Britain was irrationally shocked, all other nations have similar examples of national figures dying.

Grief is not a matter of simple arithmetic, to think it is, is inhuman.

These Astornauts died in a great endeavour taking significant risks and representing the people of the US and the world. They were well known and highly accomplished individuals who aspired to do great things beyond the capabilities of most of us. For all these reasons their loss resonates with people in the US and elsewhere.

If you don't understand this, you're a fool. Don't post again it was only seven, that's already been said and we don't need further evidence of another callous fool who needs to live a few more years and learn a few more lessons. If a member of your family or someone close died it'd only be one, but you'd care disproportionately to the numbers. This has nothing to do with the numbers, or pride.

knackered
02-02-2003, 04:10 PM
You would describe what you're feeling as grief, dorbie?

dorbie
02-02-2003, 04:29 PM
I wouldn't say I'm grieving greatly, but I respect the right of others to do so without throwning arithmetic in their face and citing the deaths of others to discount their feelings. I was shocked to see the shuttle disintegrate. I care about the space program and respect those who risk their lives. My thoughts are with the relatives who were waiting to celebrate the pinnacle of their loved one's life achivements only to lose them in an instant, forever. I can see the human tragedy and why this is such a terrible thing for anyone who cares to pay attention. If there is such a thing as collective grief (I can't think of a better word) then I suppose this is it.

[This message has been edited by dorbie (edited 02-02-2003).]

zed
02-02-2003, 08:12 PM
speaking about diana heres a couple of lines from a song i wrote on her deathday (very pertinent to the columbia disaster WRT the media)

A C#m G Bm (sung in prince style falsetto)
..
(censored)
..
it was then the largest ever watched tv spectacular,
watch by an audience numbering in the idiots.
i said oh my lord this cant be true i must be living in a world fools.

------
ill post some thoughts on related issues on my website later on, including the reason why the disaster happened.

main cause -> the tiles (which were never a good idea when youre travelling at X 1000's of k/hr)
(not enuf flour + water)

dorbie
02-02-2003, 09:47 PM
Where would the world be without your genius?

JustHanging
02-03-2003, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by zed:

A C#m G Bm


Sorry, zed, but this sounds like crap. How are you supposed to play it? After all, it's coming from "prolly the greatest composer alive at the moment" http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

Peace to the memory of these brave men.

-Ilkka

Nutty
02-03-2003, 04:44 AM
It's a human tragedy. When Princess Dianna died it was one person but Britain was irrationally shocked, all other nations have similar examples of national figures dying.

Well again I thought this was stupid, IMHO. Hardly anyone knew her, yet they lined the streets like it was everyones own sister that died.


They were well known

No they weren't. Perhaps to ppl following the space industry, but I couldn't even name one of them. And the majority of ppl in this world wouldn't be able to either.


If a member of your family or someone close died it'd only be one, but you'd care disproportionately to the numbers.

I'd care because I knew them! And it would be a great loss to me personally. Losing 7 astronauts I'd never heard of before isn't.

I just hate this attitude of being expected to grieve for no reason. Do you grieve everytime someone on the opposite side of the world is killed without reason? If we all had to grieve everytime someone we didn't know died, we'd never get anything done.

Its a sad loss to ppl they knew and loved. Its not to everyone else. Get a grip.


You know, this is the main reason why people don't frequent this board more often. No moderator to take care of these things.

My boards are moderated http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

zed
02-03-2003, 09:15 AM
>>Where would the world be without your genius?<<

pretty much in the same place i expect http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/frown.gif

btw hey i thought u werent gonna post anymore http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

i noticed this today http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2720631.stm
not fully proven yet (but i expect this will be the final cause)
as ive said since the 80s the tiles are not a good idea,
mainly cause when youre travelling a thousands of km's per hour u want a surface made of one piece + not composed of a myraid of smaller pieces
also theyre stuck on with 'flour + water'

davepermen
02-03-2003, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by dorbie:
I wouldn't say I'm grieving greatly, but I respect the right of others to do so without throwning arithmetic in their face and citing the deaths of others to discount their feelings. I was shocked to see the shuttle disintegrate. I care about the space program and respect those who risk their lives. My thoughts are with the relatives who were waiting to celebrate the pinnacle of their loved one's life achivements only to lose them in an instant, forever. I can see the human tragedy and why this is such a terrible thing for anyone who cares to pay attention. If there is such a thing as collective grief (I can't think of a better word) then I suppose this is it.

[This message has been edited by dorbie (edited 02-02-2003).]

i can see the same human tragecy in the ones that died in the train accident, in car accidents, in bombs in israel, etc. they all had families, they all had moments to celebrate, some of them came from work and wanted to announce some big change in live, like getting a bether job, or finishing a long project. who knows? who cares? the families do. the friends do. the coworkers do. and so does currently the NASA. but the rest has nothing to care about that. nobody cares about any human, but any human is great in his live, and does not earn to die.

say to see more in that event is simply utterly stupid. you bitch on the other humans that died, you state they don't count, you state that those astronauts where bether humans. if they would still live, you could ask them if they are bether humans than the ones died in the train, than the ones bombed in israel, the childs died due hunger, etc. they would for sure support your oppinion "yes, we are bether than those".

think again. you're quite racistic (by using the word in the wrong position as its not about a race, but it shows the idea..).

dorbie
02-03-2003, 04:17 PM
Dave, your top quote is correct but the rest of your post is an irrational and outrageous lie. The things you claim I support, think or even say (you even have the gall to put some things in quotes) are false. (I think you're confusing your posters from a thread on 9-11, which I never posted to). Your powers for mind reading and rational thought have failed you again.

It is self evident that people care about the events close to their lives and that affected them. The Shuttle is internationally recognized, the astronauts are famous to millions. I've personally seen several shuttle launches at the Kenedy space center, undoubtedly one of the most awe inspiring experiences unimaginable. I've visited and worked with United Space Alliance and others on shuttle simulator issues in Houston (the ones used to train the Astronauts), and worked with other parts of NASA on other graphics issues. I take pride in my small contributions. There are millions like me, most even closer to the space program.

When Challenger blew up, almost *every* US schoolkid was assembled and watching live on TVs in assembly halls all over the country. It was a national education program promoted by NASA, there was the first school teacher astronaut on board. For them this brings back those memories of being ushered out of those halls in shock and silence.

I have tried to explain why this resonates with people, why they are close and why they care. You chose not to listen, instead accusing me of the very things you are guilty of, and putting the words of others in my mouth.

Dave, I know you are an anti-american bogot from your rambling offline emails to me, incomprehensibly accusing America of things like "causing every war last century".

Your bigotry does not give you a passport to accuse me of racism. If you're looking for bigotry then look in the mirror.


[This message has been edited by dorbie (edited 02-04-2003).]

HalcyonBlaze
02-03-2003, 04:40 PM
This might be getting a little out of hand here.

The death of the brave men and women on that shuttle is utterly tragic. I woke up, and got told by my dad (i'm 17...still at home) to turn the TV on. When i found out about what had happened, i didn't just feel sad, i had a shiver run down my spine.

The reason, in my opinion, that events like this take over the media goes beyond the tragic death of the astronauts. The death of them is as sad as the death of any other human being, but this was a blow to the country also. At some level, we have placed a certain amount of hope on the space program. Seeing a space shuttle fly into space is an almost patriotic burst of feelings. Likewise, the explosion of one is as damaging and startling as events like that on September 11th.

This isn't about people being respected over others.

With that, I hope that the souls of the crew from the Columbia rest in peace. They are nothing short of heros for the grave sacrifices they made to better life for all their fellow humans.

- Halcyon

dorbie
02-03-2003, 04:58 PM
Well said Halcyon, I think you make a good point that should be emphasized, I wish I could have been half as elloquent earlier. Respect for the tragic loss of one group does not mean disrespect nor disregard for another. You lose what you thought you once had, you miss those you feel the most connected to the most, for whatever reason. To do so is human.

fritzlang
02-03-2003, 05:19 PM
http://www-pao.ksc.nasa.gov/kscpao/shuttle/summaries/pdf/sts107memo.pdf

zed
02-03-2003, 07:35 PM
>>The reason, in my opinion, that events like this take over the media goes beyond the tragic death of the astronauts. The death of them is as sad as the death of any other human being, but this was a blow to the country also. At some level, we have placed a certain amount of hope on the space program.<<

(im guessing out my ass) but i believe the % of gdp that goes to space research in the us is even less than what goes to foreign aid http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif
the kiwi government is also guilty of the same thing (not space of course) theyre willing to get the praise when something is achieved but are not willing to put money into it in the first place (hmm could of phrased that better)

>>They are nothing short of heros for the grave sacrifices they made to better life for all their fellow humans.<<

thats exactlly what i think when im doing my job (stuck up a ladder picking apples) cause

A/ it could kill me (ive been lucky sofar)
B/ im providing healthy food for my fellow humans.

cheers haycon yourve made my day.

HalcyonBlaze
02-03-2003, 07:59 PM
@Zed:

I don't know if you are being sarcastic there (i think you kind are http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif ). The first point that you made is probably true and I agree with you that more money should be put into the space program.

If you were being sarcastic with the second point, I'd like to just point out that I'm not saying that the rest of us aren't heroes in some way, shape or form. That last part of my post before was not meant to be a justification of any of the other points i made within that post. I may not have worded it perfectly, but I meant every word i said.

And you guys on this forum that have been posting for who knows how long are heroes. I mean you zed have made somewhere around a 1,500 posts. If even 500 of those posts were helpful to others, imagine how many lives you have affected. I mean it may not seem like much to you when you help them. For example, because of help from this forum I was able to finish a small project for the CSCI department at my college. After completion of that project, I was offered a job as a research assistant. This is all during my freshman year.

I am not saying that the astronauts were more important than any one of us here. I just feel sad that they were killed in that tragic of an incident. I'm not saying everyone SHOULD feel sad about it...just that I do.

- Halcyon

Edit: If you were just joking around with that remark and not being very sarcastic, I apologize if you are offended by any of my remarks above. I intended no offense to you or anyone else when i wrote them.

[This message has been edited by HalcyonBlaze (edited 02-03-2003).]

zed
02-04-2003, 09:28 AM
points to ponder about heros.
- would they have been heros if the spaceshuttle didnt die?
- were the 2 space tourists that have gone up into space after paying many millions of dollars heros?
- i(+ countless others i presume) would love to go into space like they did, would this make me a hero?

>>I am not saying that the astronauts were more important than any one of us here.<<

FWIW i think they prolly were 'worth' more than the average person here + certainly worth more than the average human on the planet

SirKnight
02-04-2003, 09:44 AM
MARGE! Get me another beer! http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

-SirKnight

Coconut
02-04-2003, 09:54 AM
From the dictionary:

Main Entry: he·ro
Pronunciation: 'hir-(")O, 'hE-(")rO
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural heroes
Etymology: Latin heros, from Greek hErOs
Date: 14th century
1 a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b : an illustrious warrior c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities d : one that shows great courage
2 a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work b : the central figure in an event, period, or movement
3 plural usually heros : SUBMARINE 2
4 : an object of extreme admiration and devotion : IDOL

=====================================
What is your definition of hero, zed?



[This message has been edited by Coconut (edited 02-04-2003).]

Korval
02-04-2003, 03:31 PM
its really tons of money that get spent to explore space, and i don't see much use in it.

I tend to think that the continued-existence of life on Earth is a relatively noble goal.

The Dinosaurs all were killed due to the impact of a large meteor from space. An event which, them lacking intelligence and technology, was completely unavoidable for them.

In 100 years, assuming we continue to fund space exploration, such an event is not unavoidable for us. As such, I'd like to think that this is a noble goal.

And, even removing that specter (or any number of other potential specters of space-based killing of life), we happen to rely on our sun for the continued existence of our species. That sun isn't going to be there forever. Not to say that it's going away anytime soon, but it won't be there in a few billion years.

Assuming we haven't killed ourselves off, or evolved/devolved ourselves into a new species, we, as a species, should probably leave this solar system at some point before the sun decides to go Nova or otherwise die of (in a generally violent fashion).

So, yes, I see space exploration as important. Indeed, far more important than dealing with Iraq, North Korea, or any other nation. Our species' long-term survival is at stake.

Of course, most members of our species are too caught up in minor squables and short-term thinking to look at the big picture and do what's best for the survival of our species. Natural selection, on a galactic scale, still works the same, I guess.

KRONOS
02-04-2003, 04:25 PM
lol The most disrespectfull thing you could do to those people is what you're doing right now. Make their death a marketing event or matter of discution. I believe it is more tragical a fireman dying in a fire than this. If you want heroes, please look somewhere else.

And don't be hypocritical. The only people that can have thoose type of feelings are their loved one's. For God's sake, you didn't even knew them!! I think every death is tragic, but please... I think America likes to make a soap opera out of everything... By the way, who wants to start a thread about the upcoming war?!

SirKnight
02-04-2003, 06:51 PM
By the way, who wants to start a thread about the upcoming war?!


FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NOOOO!!! I've heard (actually all of us prolly) enough about whether its right or wrong, how dumb bush is for starting this (which I do agree on that http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif) and this is one subject that has been done literally to death and doesn't need redoing.

Also, can we go back to OpenGL already? Yes I feel bad for what happened, I really really wish it didn't. This thread is turning really stupid, lets just go back to this thing they call OpenGL. It's a much nicer place to be. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

-SirKnight

davepermen
02-04-2003, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by dorbie:
Dave, your top quote is correct but the rest of your post is an irrational and outrageous lie. The things you claim I support, think or even say (you even have the gall to put some things in quotes) are false. (I think you're confusing your posters from a thread on 9-11, which I never posted to). Your powers for mind reading and rational thought have failed you again.
hm okay, sorry then.


It is self evident that people care about the events close to their lives and that affected them. The Shuttle is internationally recognized, the astronauts are famous to millions. I've personally seen several shuttle launches at the Kenedy space center, undoubtedly one of the most awe inspiring experiences unimaginable. I've visited and worked with United Space Alliance and others on shuttle simulator issues in Houston (the ones used to train the Astronauts), and worked with other parts of NASA on other graphics issues. I take pride in my small contributions. There are millions like me, most even closer to the space program.
okay. still there are millions now crying that didn't had even a clue columbia was currently in space. hm yes i remember, the one with the israeli. read that once in a newspaper. its like apollo 11, apollo 12, apollo 13. everyone remembers neil armstrong. everyone remembers tomhanks in apollo 13 (i'm very bad at names, but i remember the whole story). anyone remembering from head apollo 12 is interested in space flights. everyone else simply cries because it got such a tragecy thanks to the news (imho).


When Challenger blew up, almost *every* US schoolkid was assembled and watching live on TVs in assembly halls all over the country. It was a national education program promoted by NASA, there was the first school teacher astronaut on board. For them this brings back those memories of being ushered out of those halls in shock and silence.
so? as i stated yet, i support honouring them, and i support for example to take a minute of silence for them (wich i gave'm, too), and all. but even here, in europe, the last days it was about all that was to talk about in the news, in papers, etc. and all about the tragecy, seeing women crying "it is so a tragecy for the u.s.", then they get asked some stuff about the flight and they had no clue at all. but it "hurts the u.s., all we believe in". great to believe in stuff you have no clue about.
thats what we can see all the day around now, and it simply sucks. it makes a tragecy (wich it is) a rather boring joke.. boulevard-press all around..


I have tried to explain why this resonates with people, why they are close and why they care. You chose not to listen, instead accusing me of the very things you are guilty of, and putting the words of others in my mouth.
sorry, yes can be i mixed you up with someone else.. somehow i am currently irritated who you actually are. and your reasons are okay, you at least had to do with the nasa..
what i don't understand is the ones "it was my dream and now the dream is dead" dudes, as well as the "its a big tragecy for the u.s. as a whole". both is not really true. space flights will go on (and not only in the u.s.). and for sure, it is not a political event. its a problem of the nasa, and an accident.

Dave, I know you are an anti-american bogot from your rambling offline emails to me, incomprehensibly accusing America of things like "causing every war last century".
e-mails? wtf? i'm very irritated..
i'm not anti-american. i'm against all countries that think they can solve problems with wars (espencially when there aren't real problems, like, imho, now). and i think yes, the u.s. did quite some bad things the last century, i'll support that.
still, the u.s. does have good parts as well, f.e. nasa _is_ one of the good things imho. (while they sometimes simply have too much money for some stuff.. remember the 6billion dollar pen story? http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif)


Your bigotry does not give you a passport to accuse me of racism. If you're looking for bigotry then look in the mirror.
i look in the mirror and there is nothing. all i see is a person who lives in a country without war, in a region without enemies, and without any personal enemies myself. then i can look around and see big countries on this world playing with weapons, killing people, or plan to. that isn't needed anymore, most the time. i don't believe in war, it has never solved anything yet.

i _TOLD_ i use the wrong word btw. i _TOLD_ its not racism. what i ment is that you (or not you actually, as you do have reasons, you are personally involved. others that cry currently arent, so the 'you' is more a general one, not dorbie) are sort of racistic (tell me the word if you know it, i honestly don't know) in terms that you cry for those 7, but don't bother about the 100ths that died the same day, even while you do know about it.
some do, because with those 7 their dream died. that is not true, dreams will always live, space flight will go on.
some do, because it hurt americas pride, and those are the ones i call racisistic in this term. if the train accident with 42 deaths would've happened in the u.s., those 42 would now be heroes, and everyone would have to cry, and it would've been a tragic accident. at least for those who cry "it hurt america".
some do, because they are personally involved (like you, right?). those i understand.
and some cry, because it is in the news, and everyone does. they are just stupid.


i hope to be able to rightify (uh..) my position now a bit. uhm.. rightify.. i ment correct http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by davepermen (edited 02-04-2003).]

HalcyonBlaze
02-04-2003, 09:57 PM
Whoa....this is getting waaay out of control. Look, reading through all the long posts, one thing has become apparent to me: Everyone has a different level of reaction to this incident. Some look at it in a global aspect and can say that it's just a few people that died, while others take it very personally. Each of us will have a different opinion and view on the matter, but NONE of us are wrong here.

I mean you can render a scene in a perspective or orthogonal projections and the scene will look different. However, it's still the same scene...just with a new view.

What happened was tragic in my opinion and I'm sadned by the event. When fritzlang posted on this forum, it was to express his opinion and feelings on the matter. But now it's turned into a debate about how to look at this incident. The incident happened...that's it. There is nothing more to it that that cold hard fact. How we feel about it as individuals is up to us. I bet that not a single person who has read or posted on this thread feels the exact same way about the event.

I think that we should just leave this thread at where it is. Like KRONOS said, this is starting to become disrespectful.

- Halcyon

john
02-04-2003, 10:07 PM
I like the Space Shuttle. I think the discussion about its development are interesting, but too complicated for me to fully appreciate. For example, I think its interesting that some people were opponents of the glider approach to landing; some argued that it'd be more economical for the Shuttle to splash down in the sea and though that Nasa's insistance on landing on a runway as snubbing their nose at what Nasa perceived to be an "inelegant" method of landing. Like I say; I like the Shuttle, but further to the Nasa PDF about what Columnbia's mission was, here is an anti-shuttle article:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2078104/

dorbie
02-04-2003, 11:32 PM
I read the Space Shuttle launch costs (adjusted for today) were projected to be around $5 Million per trip with 1 launch a week, they ended up at $500 Million and 4 launches per year. The original design had a winged booster that would also glide back & land instead of twin SRBs. Feynman's account of the Challenger inquiry are interesting, especially w.r.t. management's estimations of the risk of failure per launch pre-Challenger (infinitesimal) vs the engineers of around 1/200. Their classification of SRB seal failure as safety margin was the most surprising thing, you don't hear that mentioned much. This was one of many failures including serious flaws in the Shuttle engines like fractures in the turbine blades of pumps that were intended to fly 50 missions between services and ended up serviced every mission.

Recently I saw a former Shuttle commander put the risk at maybe 1/50 to 1/60 but that was after the recent event.

Even if they shoot for a different space vehicle claiming it's safer, I can't help thinking it's going to be a similar story. Cost overruns and unrealistic estimates of the probability of catastrophic failure, and they'll learn the hard way again.


[This message has been edited by dorbie (edited 02-05-2003).]

davepermen
02-04-2003, 11:46 PM
i don't want to think about how often that thing would blow up if they would fly weekly.. uh...

if there is one that can't calculate, it looks like he works at the NASA, hehe.. they convert wrong measurementformats and voilà, away is the mars sonde.. they calculate wrong estimates, and voilà, 10000% of the original planed costs.. and the u.s.gov continues to pay them.. (and wants to pay them more now even) doesn't sound _that_ heroic..

dorbie
02-04-2003, 11:55 PM
Troll.

davepermen
02-05-2003, 01:26 AM
why?

i really tried to clean all up above and you gave no reply, so what?

Robbo
02-05-2003, 02:18 AM
Hey, I didn't read all of the above posts (as I've just discovered, life is too short). But I would like to add my 2p.

Space exploration has three main goals. Firstly, the goal that the public hears about - its called "progress", fullfilling our human destiny etc. Secondly, its called "government subsidy for high-tech industry" and there is nothing wrong with that. The money isn't wasted. Thirdly, we should always be looking to push the boundaries of our technology (within reason), otherwise we will stagnate - become like the old USSR and just wither and die. Its part of the human condition.

Now, as to whether we should all be crying about "just 7 astronaughts" - well, remember that these guys were doing what most of us wanted to do when we were children (well I did anyway). Just remember that people need heroes and although millions of people die for lots of reasons every year (even natural causes), some people who die, die in the name of human progress.

I salute them!

Coconut
02-05-2003, 05:36 AM
Since when people care about how the dude living next door spending his owned money?
It is his money dude.
Of course we can say whatever we want about how stupid he spent more than $400 dollars on his brand new GeForce Fx graphics card to just play games, compared to smart ass like us who develop applications for the card. It doesn't make you or him a better person by just talking trash.

ToolChest
02-05-2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by dorbie:
Dave, I know you are an anti-american bogot from your rambling offline emails to me, incomprehensibly accusing America of things like "causing every war last century".


Dave, buddy... you mind explaining this to me? Put it in terms of WWII... I would love to hear your take it...

davepermen
02-05-2003, 10:37 AM
hm.. what ever. most bigger wars after the world wars where with the u.s. involved. and while the u.s. finished the worldwars, it did it with a lot of blood, as far as i can remember.. wich i don't think is nice. the way is the goal, not the result.

anyways.. i formulated once my agression against the u.s. like this, when they started to plan to attack afghanistan, or parts of it. i thought this millenium, humans got cleverer.. "with great power comes great responsibility", we know that phrase at least since last year, all of us. or most.. if you learn to fight, first lesson is to learn to not fight at all.

so i simply find it primitive to see now stuff like the iraqi war, when ever it will start, or not. and the u.s. was involved in quite a lot of wars during the last centurie, at least the biggest ones.

anyways, dorbie there got a lot wrong into his eyes, and he'll never forget as it looks like. i did, hehe.. oops http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

learn one thing: never say never, right? so never say all, or nothing, or every, or all those absolute words. when ever i do, and that you can all remember from now on, when ever i use an absolute word, i don't mean it absolute, but, in general. so when i say "causing every war last century" (he forgot to add the "after the ww's", i am absolute sure), i mean most bigger wars, so they are top if you would do statistics.

anyways, this is all for nothing (and i hope this time its not absolute as well..)

ToolChest
02-05-2003, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by davepermen:
hm.. what ever. most bigger wars after the world wars where with the u.s. involved. and while the u.s. finished the worldwars, it did it with a lot of blood, as far as i can remember.. wich i don't think is nice. the way is the goal, not the result.


That's gratitude for you... without that blood your ass would be living in northern germany right now...

Humus
02-05-2003, 11:02 AM
I don't know which way is north in your world but given that davepermen is from Switzerland I would say southern.

ToolChest
02-05-2003, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Humus:
I don't know which way is north in your world but given that davepermen is from Switzerland I would say southern.

LOL!!! don't type angry, my bad... :P

Humus
02-05-2003, 02:16 PM
I'm not typing angry, just a little sarcastic http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/tongue.gif

josip
02-05-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by Humus:
I'm not typing angry, just a little sarcastic http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/tongue.gif

I think he was referring to his original reply.

ToolChest
02-05-2003, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by josip:
I think he was referring to his original reply.

Yes, my quick and inaccurate response... http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

This is only my opinion, but...

I think this whole topic is becoming a little destructive to the community. There is no way that everyone (or it seems anyone) is going to agree on this and for good reason. None of us are coming from the same perspective here and no one is wrong. Dave, we’ve talked in other threads and you seem like an ok guy. I hope you don’t think I’m personally attacking you. I’m just giving my opinion.

Political differences aside we all still speak the same language (OpenGL) and can still ‘talk shop’.

HalcyonBlaze
02-05-2003, 08:06 PM
@John_at_kbs_is : I'm with ya 100%!!

zed
02-05-2003, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by john:
I like the Space Shuttle. I think the discussion about its development are interesting, but too complicated for me to fully appreciate. For example, I think its interesting that some people were opponents of the glider approach to landing; some argued that it'd be more economical for the Shuttle to splash down in the sea and though that Nasa's insistance on landing on a runway as snubbing their nose at what Nasa perceived to be an "inelegant" method of landing. Like I say; I like the Shuttle, but further to the Nasa PDF about what Columnbia's mission was, here is an anti-shuttle article:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2078104/


i remember the best joke 'of-all-time' choosen to be the funniest by the canadians
it went something like

the americans spent 500million dollars developing a writing implement that can write underwater + also upsidedown.
the russians just used a pencil!

noone has died on a russian spaceflight IN OVER 30 YEARS

KISS (aint that a programming golden rule)

dorbie
02-06-2003, 03:22 AM
Statistics change dramatically when you edit them to your purpose and ignore others. In this case you edit the time period of concern and you ignore the number of humans launched. Of course there is the philosophy that as little space work as possible should be manned, it's inherently expensive and risky.

If memory serves correctly the last Russian loss was on reentry, they automated the capsule ventilation system and it went off too soon on reentry exposing the astronauts to the vacuum. This was compounded by an earlier decision to reduce weight by eliminating space suits during reentry.

Let's not pretend that they haven't flirted with disaster since then, the fire on their Mir and the collision after stripping the automated guidance from the resupply module to reduce costs in favour of manual docking from Mir, a case of KISS causing catastrophe? I remember hearing that they couldn't isolate the fire because they couldn't close the doors between the station modules due to cabling jury-rigged through the door, again KISS causing potentially lethal problems.


[This message has been edited by dorbie (edited 02-06-2003).]