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speedy
09-06-2007, 07:21 PM
Slashdot link:

http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/07/09/06/1335230.shtml

If it is not a rumour, and open-source drivers come to be in the following years, it could be a significant indirect push for OpenGL. :)

ie. ATI/Linux, the platform where
system/driver bug -> bug report -> workaround
becomes
system/driver bug -> fix / send patch -> use feature

Jolly good. :)

Korval
09-06-2007, 10:23 PM
Any open-source drivers would not be ATi's responsibility. Their drivers will remain closed. However, the OSD community will have the information necessary to make their own drivers, which should be good enough. Give them a year or so, and some dedicated OSD ATi team will emerge to create drivers for ATi.

glDan
09-06-2007, 10:25 PM
I guess putting AMD in charge of things sure helps the linux people out now, at least now, maybe we will see better openGL support for linux. :cool:

V-man
09-07-2007, 06:41 PM
On ati.amd.com, there was something about them dedicating more time to the Linux drivers. I should have kept the link. I believe they intend to improve the closed source drivers.

The previous problem was that ATI had not released drivers for certain newer cards like X1600 and X1900. There were no open source drivers either.


it could be a significant indirect push for OpenGL.Not anytime soon. The closed source drivers are quite slow. You lose something like 30% compared to Windows. The OSD are even slower plus some features are missing like s3 compression.

Korval
09-07-2007, 06:45 PM
there was something about them dedicating more time to the Linux drivers.Why? Just give the OSD community a spec and let them work it out. Take those Linux driver developers and put them to work on their Windows drivers, which won't have an OSD community to help them.


The OSD are even slower plus some features are missing like s3 compression.Bah. That's something for the OSD community to work out. Which is what the spec is for.

V-man
09-07-2007, 09:25 PM
I think a lot of people are expecting continued support by nVidia and ATI. The prop drivers from both companies have a reputation for being faster than the OSD.

This is similar to what AMD/ATI's page had
http://www.pcw.co.uk/vnunet/news/2198235/amd-opens-door-ati-linux

It is confusing. At some point it says "AMD will release OS drivers" and then you have "drivers are still closed source"


ATI will now develop fully functional 2D and 3D drivers for Linux. Although the drivers are still closed source, the firm will release documentation that allows third-party developers to build and support their own drivers.Maybe they mean it is currently closed source but will be released in the future?

ZbuffeR
09-08-2007, 03:12 AM
Or maybe they will develop their proprietary sdrivers, and in parallel release hardware specifications to ease development of open-source drivers.
Sort of the best of both worlds...

davej
09-08-2007, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by Korval:

there was something about them dedicating more time to the Linux drivers.Why? Just give the OSD community a spec and let them work it out. Take those Linux driver developers and put them to work on their Windows drivers, which won't have an OSD community to help them.
It will probably be a couple of years before the OS drivers are comparable to the current proprietary ones. Even if the plan was to eventually abandon the proprietary drivers, they'd be daft to not provide any updates, even if only to support new hardware, before the OS drivers are ready.

Brolingstanz
09-08-2007, 03:50 AM
That seems reasonable.

Just guessing, but a full blown, from scratch GL driver must take years to develop.

speedy
09-08-2007, 07:10 AM
If I were an open-source developer, I'd try to cut corner and climb the Mount Evans first. :D

PkK
09-10-2007, 05:18 AM
The OSD are even slower plus some features are missing like s3 compression.]Enabling S3TC support is easy: Just download and install a small library hosted in switzerland at http://homepage.hispeed.ch/rscheidegger/dri_experimental/s3tc_index.html

Doing so is illegal for US citizens due to software patent issues though.

Philipp

PkK
09-10-2007, 05:22 AM
It will probably be a couple of years before the OS drivers are comparable to the current proprietary ones. Even if the plan was to eventually abandon the proprietary drivers, they'd be daft to not provide any updates, even if only to support new hardware, before the OS drivers are ready.The Radeon Xxxx drivers aren't that bad. Someone mentioned 30% performance los compared to ATI's windows drivers. These drivers have been created without any support from ATI, without hardware documentation. I don't think it will take years to catch up when documentation is available.

Philipp

bobvodka
09-10-2007, 05:55 AM
No, the 30% loss refer to the ones created by ATI/AMD; HOWEVER the latest release gives a massive performance jump for many of the cards, bring them in line with and in some cases beating their NV counter parts and also generally improving things.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=821&num=1 holds some details and links to other related benchmarky type articles.

edit: it also appears the specs for the GPUs will be availble sans NDA? http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NjA0Ng

PkK
09-10-2007, 10:02 AM
Someone did a DRI (free graphics drivers) vs fglrx (ATI's proprietary drivers) Doom 3 benchmark a year ago (44D5D70E.4020406@voicenet.com, posted to the dri-devel list).

Using Doom 3's generic GL_ARB_vertex_program / GL_ARB_fragment_program path:

Radeon 9000 fglrx: 3.9 fps
Radeon 9000 DRI: 15.9 fps
Radeon x700 fglrx: 4.4 fps
Radeon x700 DRI: 5.5 fps

When using Doom 3's r200 codepath fglrx won (no surprise, since it was optimized for ATI's driver).

I suppose, Doom 3 triggered a software fallback somewhere, otherwise the low numbers on the x700 don't make sense.

Philipp

Jan
09-10-2007, 10:31 AM
I honestly doubt that a software-rasterizer will actually do more than 5 fps with Doom 3. It COULD be done, yes, but most software-rasterizers are not really fast, they are just a fallback.

Jan.

Rob Barris
09-10-2007, 04:14 PM
Not all software fallbacks involve the final step of rasterization.

Jan
09-10-2007, 05:43 PM
You're right, haven't thought about that.

V-man
09-11-2007, 03:44 AM
Originally posted by PkK:
Using Doom 3's generic GL_ARB_vertex_program / GL_ARB_fragment_program path:

Radeon 9000 fglrx: 3.9 fps
Radeon 9000 DRI: 15.9 fps
Radeon x700 fglrx: 4.4 fps
Radeon x700 DRI: 5.5 fps
The 9000 will use the R200 path while Radeon 9500 and above can use GL_ARB_vertex_program / GL_ARB_fragment_program

I don't know if his benchmark is accurate or what.
I been using the closed source drivers for years. Doom 3 runs from 10 to 60FPS.
This is on a Radeon 9700 128MB

The open source drivers were in some experimental, reverse engineering state so I never tried it.

I was the one who said you lose something like 30% but you have to be careful what you use to benchmark. Doom 3 on Linux doesn't use SSE since they didn't want to rewrite the inline assembly code.

For those interested, there are some articles out there comparing Windows vs Linux gaming.

PS : even the distro you use has a effect according to one benchmark I saw. Ubuntu being one of the best compared to Suse and some other one.

ZbuffeR
09-12-2007, 03:54 PM
Yay ! They are actually starting to release specs :
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NjA1Mw

speedy
09-12-2007, 07:18 PM
2D register specs are available on http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/.

If the whole (2D/3D, most chips) spec goes public, this will IMHO be a good chance to watch how OSS community develops a thing of such magnitude as an display OpenGL driver. How many forks will there be, how quick will things be developed, how stable, which range of cards will be supported and how good is the produced code, what will be the official release frequency and turnaround for patched bugs. And almost all that could be viewed in direct comparison to a company like AMD/ATI with significant sw. R&D budget. Interesting times. :)

speedy
01-13-2008, 05:23 PM
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=960&num=1

New bits and pieces are out for the public. I wonder if they will proceed with 3d acceleration specs after the announced 2d one...

"In addition, AMD will be open-sourcing part of their new proprietary OpenGL driver and will be in a state so that it can be patched into the existing R300+ Mesa driver."

:)