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tsuraan
03-03-2003, 04:30 PM
Just saw this story at slashdot saying that microsoft has quit the ARB. URL is http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/29555.html (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/29555.html.) . I know the register isn't exactly the finest news source, so I was wonder if there is likely to be any truth to this story. Any ideas?

Sorry, this isn't exactly Advanced OpenGL, but it seemed somehow relevant.

EDIT: that dot in the URL just doesn't want to go away...

[This message has been edited by tsuraan (edited 03-03-2003).]

Zeno
03-03-2003, 04:37 PM
Cass confirmed this in a post about half way down the front page:

http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/Forum3/HTML/008848.html

-- Zeno

tsuraan
03-03-2003, 04:43 PM
heh, right you are. strange that it took this long to make any sort of news.

rgpc
03-03-2003, 06:49 PM
Now the challenge is to define the difference between MS being on the ARB and not being on the ARB? (With respect to us end users)

Does it simply mean that Opengl32.dll won't be updated as often? http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

MrShoe
03-03-2003, 10:07 PM
The end of Microsoft's efforts to piss off the ARB with its IP claims...

EG
03-03-2003, 11:45 PM
> The end of Microsoft's efforts to piss off the ARB with its IP claims...

Or rather the ability to spam the ARB even more with no longer any restrictions, rules or requirements that they should disclose their IP before the ARB decides/approves anything... in a two-month-after-spec-and-driver release fashion: "hey you can't use that, we've got patents A, B, C & D".
However they would never do that, others maybe, but not Microsoft, never, ever.

Nutty
03-04-2003, 12:53 AM
Does it simply mean that Opengl32.dll won't be updated as often?

LOL! http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

ScottManDeath
03-04-2003, 01:36 AM
Hi

perhaps they plan to develop a OpenGL to D3D wrapper by writing a driver that uses the D3D drivers as a base.

After leraning it, my first thoughts were: Uggh, now they can launch torpedo after torpedo if e.g. vertex_program2 is released.

Now, as D3D is widely adopted it seems that they are so arrogant to leave OpenGL...

But the effort of MS to OpenGL won't be more or less wether they are in the ARB or not.


I guess that the next game of JC will use ... ;(

Bye
ScottManDeath

rgpc
03-04-2003, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by ScottManDeath:
perhaps they plan to develop a OpenGL to D3D wrapper by writing a driver that uses the D3D drivers as a base.


nVidia already do that don't they? I've seen plenty of D3D errors appear when GL code fails on nVidia hardware so I do wonder... http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/confused.gif

[EDIT] Mind you I haven't seen one for a while so maybe that was just a win98 thing...

[This message has been edited by rgpc (edited 03-04-2003).]

Tom Nuydens
03-04-2003, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by rgpc:
nVidia already do that don't they? I've seen plenty of D3D errors appear when GL code fails on nVidia hardware so I do wonder... http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/confused.gif

That's impossible: their OpenGL drivers typically provide more functionality than Direct3D (e.g. occlusion queries weren't available in DX8).

-- Tom

Jan
03-04-2003, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by ScottManDeath:
Perhaps they plan to develop a OpenGL to D3D wrapper by writing a driver that uses the D3D drivers as a base.


Thatīs possible. If they had such a wrapper they could easily port OpenGL games to the X-Box (although i still donīt understand why the X-Box doesnīt support OpenGL).

Of course they want to see OpenGL dead, but there are too many applications (not games), which need OpenGL, therefore i donīt see this as a threat.

Jan.

rgpc
03-04-2003, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by Tom Nuydens:
That's impossible: their OpenGL drivers typically provide more functionality than Direct3D (e.g. occlusion queries weren't available in DX8).

-- Tom

Not impossible, you just wouldn't have to develop the hardware based code to do the things you've already developed in the DX driver (to a certain extent anyway).

EG
03-04-2003, 04:31 AM
>[...] I've seen plenty of D3D errors appear when GL code fails on nVidia hardware so I do wonder...

The last ones I saw (a long time ago) were actually related to DirectDraw, not D3D.

I wouldn't be surprised if both APIs were actually layered on some kind of "unified" low-level internal API/Library/Kernel (they probably wouldn't risk tieing their whole internal architecture too closely to any API version).

The 'OpenGL emulator via D3D' thing would be a good way to give OpenGL the 'Java treatment' (make something that looks like, tastes like, but isn't and introduces proprietary dependencies).
Small & low-end hardware manufacturers would probably applaud, however that would be quite an investment of time/$$$ and may prove counterproductive. Swamping ARB with IP issues may prove more efficient IMO.

ScottManDeath
03-04-2003, 04:58 AM
Originally posted by EG:
[BThe 'OpenGL emulator via D3D' thing would be a good way to give OpenGL the 'Java treatment' (make something that looks like, tastes like, but isn't and introduces proprietary dependencies).

...Swamping ARB with IP issues may prove more efficient IMO.[/B]

Hi

it sounds as if hard times are underway ... http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/frown.gif
But on the other hand, would the IHV as nVidia or ATI stop developing their OpenGL drivers? I don't think so, how should they develop their launch demos http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif I think that IHV will not give up OpenGL just because MS wants.

If next generations windows is without OpenGL would Maya or 3DS be ported to D3D or will there be no versions for windows?

IIRC there were rumors that future windows versions will requiere 3D hw support because each window is a D3D surface. Where would then be space for OpenGL ?

Bye
ScottManDeath

Robbo
03-04-2003, 10:15 AM
Don't know about Maya, but 3DS already supports D3D. They wrapped the libraries years ago http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

Plato
03-04-2003, 02:15 PM
Hm... I hope that one day we're not saying

"gg SGI, you boneheads, you killed opengl with your IP sale :/"

dorbie
03-04-2003, 02:27 PM
If you cared so much you could always have offered them more cash, too late now I guess.

It's dog eat dog, welcome to the meal.

It takes a real bonehead to feel Microsoft chewing on your ass and blame the starting course for your discomfort, but it takes spectacular boneheadedness to complain when you were doing some of the dining.


[This message has been edited by dorbie (edited 03-04-2003).]

tsuraan
03-04-2003, 03:33 PM
If you cared so much you could always have offered them more cash, too late now I guess.

Yup, I certainly do have the power to out-bid microsoft. Yup...


It's dog eat dog, welcome to the meal.

It takes a real bonehead to feel Microsoft chewing on your ass and blame the starting course for your discomfort, but it takes spectacular boneheadedness to complain when you were doing some of the dining.

That's what we call an extended metaphor gone wrong. Would you like to rephrase?

dorbie
03-04-2003, 03:50 PM
No, it's a great metaphor. Very appropriate.

Why should SGI give a crap about what you "want"? Put up the cash or shut up. You've enjoyed your PC's and cheap video cards, now you bleat about the consequences, or worse blame SGI.

You deserve SGI's contempt, not their consideration.

dorbie
03-04-2003, 03:53 PM
FWIW I love my cheap video cards, but I ain't calling SGI boneheaded for accepting a $70M windfall. Lots of things they did were plenty boneheaded, but this is just bad news for you.

tsuraan
03-04-2003, 04:27 PM
I guess you're referring to Plato here, but that's never stopped me before http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif I can't say that SGI is boneheaded for accepting a huge sum of money, but if the result of taking that money were to damage OpenGL, I'd say that it was a pretty dumb move. SGI has spent how much promoting and researching aspects of OpenGL? I don't know, but I do know that IRIX doesn't run D3D, nor do any unices. It's not just me that's losing here, it's all the users of any non-MS operating system.

dorbie
03-04-2003, 04:50 PM
Survival is usually the top priority for corporations in trouble. Noble causes take a back seat. Besides you're still adding 1 + 1 and getting 3.

You make many assumptions, and then assume that Microsoft will attempt to kill OpenGL on windows, that it's even feasible AND this will work for them. You've given in after merely glimpsing the tea leaves.


[This message has been edited by dorbie (edited 03-04-2003).]

HalcyonBlaze
03-04-2003, 05:02 PM
Well, the bright side is that if Microsoft takes things up a notch, ARB might feel some pressure to do the same thing. And we all know that ARB provides OpenGL updates as frequently as Microsoft updates their opengl32.dll http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

- Halcyon

dorbie
03-04-2003, 05:18 PM
How about a thread about how much peril D3D is in? All it would take is ATI & NVIDIA to agree that they don't want fools at Microsoft meddeling in API implementation and trying to impose I.P. stealing contracts and it'd be over and much more certainly than and injury Microsoft could inflict on OpenGL. There would be no D3D X.

Oh my goodness, D3D hangs by a thread!

V-man
03-04-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by rgpc:
nVidia already do that don't they? I've seen plenty of D3D errors appear when GL code fails on nVidia hardware so I do wonder... http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/confused.gif

[EDIT] Mind you I haven't seen one for a while so maybe that was just a win98 thing...

[This message has been edited by rgpc (edited 03-04-2003).]

I beleive they do since I had D3D8 and debug mode on.

I was running Max and it seemed to be suffering from screen corruption so I shut it down.
Then in VC++ I was working and noticed D3D8 errors beeing displayed when I shut down my GL window.
Something about 36 bytes of memory leak.

I finally decided to reboot and problem solved.
I didn't want to mention this since you guys brought it up.

This was on Win2000 with 40.xx drivers

Anyway, do you guys have to do this everytime? Oh noooooo! we're all doomed!

OK, who can tell me what the number of apps using GL+games is and what the number of D3D apps+games is?

JelloFish
03-04-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by Jan2000:
Thatīs possible. If they had such a wrapper they could easily port OpenGL games to the X-Box (although i still donīt understand why the X-Box doesnīt support OpenGL).

Jan.

My understanding is that MS feels that D3D for the Xbox is close enough to OpenGL that having to support separate API's would be a waste of man hours, since any game developer could port their game with minimal effort.