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Shag
03-21-2002, 05:42 PM
This place has finally hit rock bottom ... www.OpenGL.com (http://www.OpenGL.com) used to be a place of learning. That, sadly, no longer is the case.

Once upon a time I could get a reasonable answer to a reasonable question. Not anymore. Too many posters in here are far too anal to post a sensible answer to anything. It's sad. Really sad.

Maybe the answer is to ban everyone under the age of 25, or something, from posting - maybe then the respondents would give half decent answers to an off topic question.

The bigheaded people trying to answer a simple question with patronising answers should be banned. As it is, someone that tries to belittle someone else for trying to ask a reasonable question should be removed from this forum. I've never seen such an elitist bunch of morons trying to put others down on any other web site ever. That says an awful lot about the arrogance in here.

If someone is unable to answer a question then maybe they should just keep quiet Ė not patronise someone for asking a wrong question.

I originally came here to learn about OpenGL Ö but it seems that most of the Ďexpertsí are not able to answer simple questions, let alone answer complex questions. I understand that there are two forums, advanced and beginners. But that is no excuse to put someone down, and encourage them not to use OpenGL.

Maybe this is an exceptional view, who knows. BUT the entire point of online forums (I think) is to help and encourage people to learn. When people are put down for asking a question in the wrong forum, they should be directed to the right forum, nothing more. Itís about time the arrogance stopped. Itís sad, and itís childish.


[This message has been edited by Shag (edited 03-22-2002).]

j
03-21-2002, 06:14 PM
I agree that there is a lot of this happening:

Person 1: "How do I do (insert question here)?"

Person 2: "You suck, that's not advanced"

Person 1: "OK, but how do I do it?"

Person 3: "Here's how you can find out how to do it"

I think everything would be fine if we just skipped the Person 2 part. Except for the forum being flooded with mostly OT questions. Which isn't that bad, because it's usually somewhat easy to pick them out, and even if you accidentally read one, you aren't under some curse that forces you to reply or anything.


Maybe the answer is to ban everyone under the age of 25, or something, from posting - maybe then the respondents would give half decent answers to an off topic question.

The problem with that is that then many knowledgable forum users would be unable to post, including Matt from nVidia. And I would be banned too, so I wouldn't like that too much. Age does not necessarily equal maturity or knowledge.

I don't know if there is a solution to this, other than some form of moderation.

j

painterb
03-21-2002, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Shag:
This place has finally hit rock bottom <a bunch of stuff snipped> Itís about time the arrogance stopped. Itís sad, and itís childish.

http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif Exactly. And I thought I was the only one who noticed.


[This message has been edited by painterb (edited 03-21-2002).]

cass
03-21-2002, 07:42 PM
shag,

I have to admit, I haven't seen this occur, but I don't read every thread. I do occasionally (accidentally) step into a thread that's clearly not "advanced", but I just hit the back button and move on.

I think this forum still serves a great purpose, and I enjoy participating in it. I hope that a) you're not too sensitive about the rudeness of others and b) you're careful to post questions in the most appropriate forum. In either case, I hope I haven't offended.

Thanks -
Cass

mcraighead
03-21-2002, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by Shag:
Maybe the answer is to ban everyone under the age of 25, or something, from posting

That doesn't sound like a good idea; I'm well under your proposed limit.

Age and maturity are correlated, and there's even some causation in there too. However, there are data points all over the place on that scatter plot.

- Matt

zed
03-21-2002, 09:47 PM
i lay a part of the blame on www.opengl.org (http://www.opengl.org) they should have other forum types (yes i know there was a news item a little while ago about other forums to be added perhaps - any news?) for me non opengl stuff is ok,
*perhaps have a limit of say 100posts before someones allowed to post in the advanced forum (elitist most definitly http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

Kilam Malik
03-21-2002, 11:20 PM
I have no problems with OT posts, if the person writes it in the topic. Then everybody could decide to read it or not.

Also, OT posts make sense here. A few days ago I had a math problem which was not directly OpenGL related. But it made sense to post it here because here are a lot of people writing technical applications. And I got the answer I was looking for.

But the OT posts should'nt get the majority...

Maybe if the forum gets new types, they could add an OT forum?


Just my 2 cents...

Kilam.

niko
03-21-2002, 11:58 PM
Kilam, your OT post about the inertia thingy was still kinda advanced whereas questions like "how do I enable lighting in OpenGL" really do not belong to advanced forum.

haust
03-22-2002, 02:55 AM
Also, OT posts make sense here. A few days ago I had a math problem which was not directly OpenGL related. But it made sense to post it here because here are a lot of people writing technical applications. And I got the answer I was looking for.
for non opengl specific forums there still gamedev forum (http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/) . the net is full of cool coding sites even for opengl :)

[This message has been edited by haust (edited 03-22-2002).]

Kilam Malik
03-22-2002, 03:48 AM
Originally posted by haust:
for non opengl specific forums there still gamedev forum (http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/) . the net is full of cool coding sites even for opengl http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif


Yes, but I know that here are some people who program on CAD applications as I do. And I thought they could help me with that problem, which is CAD related.

niko:
What about the following:
Some of the people here in the board are made to moderators. People, who have many posts and who have advanced knowledge. You should not get automatically moderator after posting enough articles. When they see an article which is beginners, they could move it to the beginners forum.


Kilam.


[This message has been edited by Kilam Malik (edited 03-22-2002).]

Lighthouse
03-22-2002, 04:24 AM
Christ, all I did was inform someone that his AGP question was not welcome here!

knackered
03-22-2002, 04:29 AM
We should all be united on this - even the people who post beginners questions.
There's a place for everything, and everything in its place.
When I export a model from max in, say, vrml, I put it in the vrml directory. When I save a word document, I put in "My Documents".
Call me old fashioned, but if someone started putting word documents in my vrml directory, I'd get annoyed - and I would inform the culprit of what I consider their mistake.
It's the same with this forum.
What I can't (under)stand is when other people start legitimising beginners questions in an advanced forum TO THE BEGINNERS - it doesn't help the forum, which is *all* that counts.
It's not the insults that cause the harm - you should understand that.
That is my opinion. I'm fed up with people bringing up the same tired old arguments, and filling the forum with more useless rubbish.

rIO
03-22-2002, 04:42 AM
I think a good solution would be to have a technical moderator, let's explain : a moderator who has some OGL skills, so who can move messages to beginner forums (and vice versa) and understand which messages are OT.

Another good choice whould be to have one moderator who adds an [OT] symbol in the message subject if he feels the message is OT.

Ok, I know this one isn't a "politically correct" solution, but letting everyone being able to post on every forum (registering is a matter of seconds) lead the forum to get filled with OT questions (and sometimes wrong answers).

Just my 2 cents.

rIO.sK

Humus
03-22-2002, 04:46 AM
The problem is that we have separate forums for beginners and advanced user, which is bad. It just has the effect that newbies get helped by newbies when they really would need to get helped by someone with more experience. Many of the beginners have found that it's easier to get a good answer in the advanced forum even though their question isn't advanced. I don't think we should split us as beginners and advanced users.

Btw, what happend to those forums that were supposed to be added?

ND
03-22-2002, 04:47 AM
the problem of this forum is the presence of NVIDIA employees.

Why?

it is a paradox but it is the true.

Infact It should be a good thing, because it could be an opportunity to learn from one of best opengl drivers maker.

but It doesn't happen, because their intention is to PROTECT Nvidia mark not to divulgate their knowledge (oh yes sometime they simulate).

How?

they apply a fine strategy. They drive this forum answering with laconic words marking Good and bad posters. Yes you are good and I respond you...no you are not you don't merit my attention.

There isn't any idea of community in this forum, it has been corrupted .

Solution : moving on other FREE forum and newsgroups.

Kilam Malik
03-22-2002, 05:33 AM
Originally posted by Humus:
The problem is that we have separate forums for beginners and advanced user, which is bad. It just has the effect that newbies get helped by newbies when they really would need to get helped by someone with more experience. Many of the beginners have found that it's easier to get a good answer in the advanced forum even though their question isn't advanced. I don't think we should split us as beginners and advanced users.

Btw, what happend to those forums that were supposed to be added?

I agree with Humus. In the discussion about the new forums where the problem, that we would need beginners->lighting, beginners->textures etc. and also the same in advanced. So why not throw this together and make forums called "lighting" "textures" "pixel shaders". Also, make a starting page, where you could see the last 20 posts over all forums. I have seen that in a german message board which has about 50 sub-forums. They also use UBB (www.cad.de). So you don't have to look in each forum if you want to get all new articles.

Kilam.

zeckensack
03-22-2002, 05:48 AM
While I generally agree that something about the organization of this place is wrong, I want to add that I'd never post anything OpenGL related to a C programming forum, or to a general gaming forum. And for a good reason, I believe.

OT-Flood -> not good
Of course you have to know what OpenGL is to be able to recognize OT stuff. The relevant information can be gleamed from the first 18 pages of the spec. Is that asking too much?

Lev
03-22-2002, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by ND:
the problem of this forum is the presence of NVIDIA employees.

I absolutely disagree. The fact tha both NVIDIA and ATI employees are participating these forums is a big win for others and hopefully for them too.

(In these forums) I don't care if someone is "good one" or "bad one" or anything else. For me teh qualification counts, and I must say that there are many people here who know what they are talking about, whether they are NVIDIA or ATI or whatever employees doesn't matter.

As far as OT posts go - too many of them can kill this forum, if you want an example take a look at comp.graphics.api.opengl - few years ago it used to be a very cool NG and it rocked, now you only see loads of OT questions and only few people(almost can count them on my fingers) who make good contributions to the NG.

I think the "search forums" button should be much bigger - since many people (esp beginners) don't even bother to search on google, not speaking of searching the forums - and this sucks IMO.

I don't think that these forums suck, they are still the best place to get an answer to an advanced question I know and from time to time some quite interesting discussions are going on here on the advanced board.

Just my 0.02€
-Lev

martin_marinov
03-22-2002, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by ND:
the problem of this forum is the presence of NVIDIA employees.

Why?

it is a paradox but it is the true.

Infact It should be a good thing, because it could be an opportunity to learn from one of best opengl drivers maker.

but It doesn't happen, because their intention is to PROTECT Nvidia mark not to divulgate their knowledge (oh yes sometime they simulate).

How?

they apply a fine strategy. They drive this forum answering with laconic words marking Good and bad posters. Yes you are good and I respond you...no you are not you don't merit my attention.

There isn't any idea of community in this forum, it has been corrupted .

Solution : moving on other FREE forum and newsgroups.



This is maybe one of the most stupid things I've ever read here. Even wildeyedboy... can not compete with you...

ND
03-22-2002, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by martin_marinov:
This is maybe one of the most stupid things I've ever read here.



maybe it is ..for your stupid mind.

but I'm free to say this.

Olumide
03-22-2002, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by martin_marinov:
This is maybe one of the most stupid things I've ever read here. Even wildeyedboy... can not compete with you...



There we go again ... one person making the same mistake we are trying to correct ... One person who finds it hard to accept the fact that another person has the right to air his opinions ...

martin_marinov all you had to say was ".. I dont agree ..." or something like that ...


[This message has been edited by Olumide (edited 03-22-2002).]

T2k
03-22-2002, 07:42 AM
i think a good idea for this forum would be a rating system for individual messages and users: if you read an post decide if it is offtopic (0points) or totally opengl related(10points), then the message is automaticaly moved to the correct forum, lets say all under 5 points to beginner and over to advanced ... and after a while the person can see where the correct place for his message is ... and thats the first suggestion for a rating system ... lets say you rate a submessage, if it gets under 5 points its automaticaly removed... and so on ...
but moderators are still needed (especialy they could close a thread so that no one can reply! this would stopp some ugly threads ...) or they change the board in that form, that the thread creators can close their own thread !!!

Gorg
03-22-2002, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by T2k:
i think a good idea for this forum would be a rating system for individual messages and users: if you read an post decide if it is offtopic (0points) or totally opengl related(10points), then the message is automaticaly moved to the correct forum, lets say all under 5 points to beginner and over to advanced ... and after a while the person can see where the correct place for his message is ... and thats the first suggestion for a rating system ... lets say you rate a submessage, if it gets under 5 points its automaticaly removed... and so on ...
but moderators are still needed (especialy they could close a thread so that no one can reply! this would stopp some ugly threads ...) or they change the board in that form, that the thread creators can close their own thread !!!

I like this idea. It was proposed earlier by Knackered with is "crap button" http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

knackered
03-22-2002, 07:58 AM
That's too complicated.
What we need to do is come to a general opinion about what is and is not acceptable in the forum, and back each other up when one of us points out the inappropriateness of a particular post to someone - not start calling someone unhelpful, and then proceed to answer the inappropriate/offtopic question...it does nobody any favours.

Coconut
03-22-2002, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by Olumide:
There we go again ... one person making the same mistake we are trying to correct ... One person who finds it hard to accept the fact that another person has the right to air his opinions ...

martin_marinov all you had to say was ".. I dont agree ..." or something like that ...


[This message has been edited by Olumide (edited 03-22-2002).]

Olumide,
It seems you are arguing where the line is drawn. There is a huge difference between
"I don't agree with you because you are stupid" and "I don't agree with you because what you said is stupid".

Olumide
03-22-2002, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by Coconut:
Olumide,
There is a huge difference between
"I don't agree with you because you are stupid" and "I don't agree with you because what you said is stupid".


Whatever be the case, the fact remains that the word stupid is not very polite and should only be used when hurt is intended ...

knackered
03-22-2002, 08:51 AM
That's your opinion, Olumide - I've behaved stupidly in the past, and never considered it impolite when someone called me stupid, so long as they justified it. You're too sensitive for this world.

Coconut
03-22-2002, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by Olumide:
Whatever be the case, the fact remains that the word stupid is not very polite and should only be used when hurt is intended ...



May you suggest an alternative word to "stupid"?

bsenftner
03-22-2002, 09:03 AM
Does anyone here read www.slashdot.org? (http://www.slashdot.org?) they a have a very useful moderator system where forum users can "mod up" or "mod down" any particular forum post. I believe that it creates a very clear system where people posting off topic or previously discussed issues get moderated down and those that are using the forum in its intended manner get moderated up. People that post rude answers to newbie questions get moderated down- since that is even more off topic than the newbie question and the clear answer to their question gets moderated up for easy location. And the source code for "slash" (as their forum software is called) is open source. I suggest that we petition opengl.org to adopt it.

About the only addition to the slash logic that I would advocate is an auto search engine query that runs on all posts when they are submitted- that search would present the poster with previous threads that may discuss their issue. Then they can examine those and add references to them in their post to make clear in their question that they have examined the archives and their question differs from previous threads for the following reasons. It may be more work, but those that follow the "previous threads reference" guidelines would be moderated up by all the frequent forum users.

Elixer
03-22-2002, 09:11 AM
You have to admit, that 60% of the questions posted on this part of the message board are already answered in the forums. Seems the rest are either OT, way OT, or in the rare case a good question. If users would search, rather than post, it would help, although a moderator would help more.

It also seems like your screwed if you reply to a OT post or not, if you don't reply, they cry that you are ignoring them. If you do reply, then they cry about the info you give them. Perhaps if they took the initiative to do some research first it would help--or is that asking for to much?

I don't think flames are appropriate in the BEGINNERS forum (unless they request it http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif), but they are appropriate in the ADVANCED forum, since if we don't have some type of control, then the ADVANCED forum will turn into a BEGINNERS forum, and that is something we do NOT want. That is the whole purpose of having different sections, instead of having 1 board where anything goes.



[This message has been edited by Elixer (edited 03-22-2002).]

nemesis
03-22-2002, 09:23 AM
The problem is that we have separate forums for beginners and advanced user, which is bad. It just has the effect that newbies get helped by newbies when they really would need to get helped by someone with more experience.

I don't agree Humus. A lot of advanced people are also answering questions in the beginners forum. I usually read topics from both forums and answer what I can (although I'm not very advanced, I must say...).
Sometimes I have to ask questions in one forum OR in the other, cause I may know more or less about different topics.


So why not throw this together and make forums called "lighting" "textures" "pixel shaders".
Yeah, maybe it could be a good idea, Kilam.

-nemesis-

painterb
03-22-2002, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Olumide:
Whatever be the case, the fact remains that the word stupid is not very polite and should only be used when hurt is intended ...


Olumide is right. Calling people names (or their ideas stupid) is indicative of just how immature you are. It has no place in a professional setting (although sadly I've seen managers who have done both).

I have no problem trying to chase away the beginner postings from the Advanced forum. Only with the manner in which many people here do so. Saying "you dumbass, don't post you're stupid question here until you read x" is inappropriate. I'm all for whatever system we come up with that will improve this. In the meantime, anytime I see a reply like the above, I'm going to provide a *useful* answer.

Now, since we do have a lot of OT posts like "where can I get models from?", or "How do I write a routine to read bmp files?", maybe the boardmaster can add a forum such as OpenGL-RELATED, or even OpenGL-OT. I'll be happy to answer questions there and not here.

Coconut
03-22-2002, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by painterb:
Olumide is right. Calling people names (or their ideas stupid) is indicative of just how immature you are. It has no place in a professional setting (although sadly I've seen managers who have done both).

stupid question here until you read x" is inappropriate. I'm all for whatever system we come up with that will improve this. In the meantime, anytime I see a reply like the above, I'm going to provide a *useful* answer.


It must be my mistake.
I did not know this is coding http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/tongue.gifrofessional forum, so people should only post professional contents here. Glad I did not call anyone or anything stupid here.
BTW, where is the forum for the coding:unprofessional people? I am curious to know what they would talk about OpenGL coding.
http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/confused.gif

knackered
03-22-2002, 11:17 AM
Painterb, have you been called stupid quite a lot?
What is your definition of 'professional'? Is it people who conduct themselves in the same manner as you?
I don't care what people say to offtopic/beginner posters, so long as the message is loud and clear - "do not post things like this again - post them *here*".

Calling people immature is immature. Calling people unprofessional is very unprofessional. The professional thing to do would be *not* to comment on the nature of someone elses response, or maybe re-iterate the point which you apparently agree with.
I'm a professional, and there's nothing I've said in these forums that I wouldn't say to someone in my every-day professional work life (wanna come work with me? http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif )- and I'd expect people to take my criticism in a professional manner - ie. not to winge about it.

Zeno
03-22-2002, 11:19 AM
Check it out, you can reply to this post without using the word "stupid" http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif


Originally posted by ND:
the problem of this forum is the presence of NVIDIA employees.

Why?

it is a paradox but it is the true.


A paradox, by definition, cannot be true. So, either what you say is not a paradox, or it cannot exist in a logical universe (i.e. it's false).



Infact It should be a good thing, because it could be an opportunity to learn from one of best opengl drivers maker.


I agree, and this is what I have found to be the case.



but It doesn't happen, because their intention is to PROTECT Nvidia mark not to divulgate their knowledge (oh yes sometime they simulate).


If you don't mind me disagreeing, I think that they have "divulgated" a huge amount of useful knowledge, and it wasn't just a simulation.



How?

they apply a fine strategy. They drive this forum answering with laconic words marking Good and bad posters. Yes you are good and I respond you...no you are not you don't merit my attention.


In case you haven't noticed a pattern, they tend to respond to posts that they are uniquely qualified to respond to, and not too much else. For instance, they will almost always reply to posts about potential driver bugs or concerning papers that they have written. On the other hand, they tend to shy away from most of the recent off-topic, flame-ridden posts that have become so common lately. Filtering this way saves their time so that they may have some sort of life outside of this board.



There isn't any idea of community in this forum, it has been corrupted .

Solution : moving on other FREE forum and newsgroups.


You're sentence implies that this is not a free forum. Do you mean free as in speech or free as in beer? Either way, this place seems to be both and I am grateful for it.

Perhaps this link http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html should be required reading or linked to from the top of the forum, right next to a large search button. Maybe have people take a test on it before being given a username and password.

At any rate, if the board does decide to go with moderators, I would volunteer.

-- Zeno

richardve
03-22-2002, 11:28 AM
you dumbass, don't post you're stupid question here until you read

No no no, you should bring it more carefully, like this:




Attention you moronic M$-lover,

You are being contacted because you started an offtopic thread.
To repent, you must learn to correctly use a bulletin board and send Bill Gates hate mail.

In closing, I'd like to say you're an idiot.

Regards,
Richard



To be somewhat more serious, have a look at the OpenGL section at Gamedev.NET , all questions are like "creating a simple 3D modeller, how to make the window?", "Rotating an object around a point" and "Mixing Texturing and Lighting"

That's NOT what this forum should be (imho).
But it's getting more like that every day..

Not only that, some of the new people are also posting everything twice (aka crossposting)
Also, they're not taking the time to do a little research by themselves.
(according to the one-line questions)

Having a question?
Oh well, let's just post it, I don't have time to solve this on my own (what? programming takes time to learn?? Man, you're not serious about that are you?)


This is the reason for my more or less flame-like-posts.. I saw the same happening to GD.NET some years ago, and it will also happen to this board if nobody makes it stop. :p

[/rant]

knackered
03-22-2002, 11:28 AM
Zeno, congratulations - not one 'stupid', but at the expense of a fair amount of text, and probably a lot of your time.
What is the definition of a 'flame'? I've always been curious...people seem to be bandying the word around completely out of what I consider its context.
Is disagreeing with someone 'flaming' them? Or is it if the word 'stupid' is used in the reply?

MikeC
03-22-2002, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by Zeno:
A paradox, by definition, cannot be true. So, either what you say is not a paradox, or it cannot exist in a logical universe

You've been waiting for that ever since choosing your username, haven't you? :-)


Perhaps this link http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html should be required reading or linked to from the top of the forum, right next to a large search button.

In theory, absolutely. In practice, the people who most need to read it are exactly the people who never, ever will. Unless we just start keeping the whole essay in our clipboards and pasting it into replies to OT posts.

Fully agree about the presence of IHV guys, including 3Dlabs who didn't get mentioned earlier (we love ya barthold!). They're most definitely an asset. Since their posts are bound to be slightly coloured I've sometimes thought it'd be nice to have little badges in their usernames (e.g. Fred[ATI] or Bob[NV]), as some of them do, but you don't need to hang around very long to work out who's who.

I'd also be happy to moderate (I'm no GL expert, but I think I know enough to make a reasonable guess at where to draw the line) - anyone know if the UBB software supports moderation?

painterb
03-22-2002, 11:40 AM
Calling people immature is immature. Calling people unprofessional is very unprofessional.

This is funny. I actually didn't call *anyone* immature or unprofessional. Rather I just made a statement. It's a case of "if the shoe fits..." Apparently for you, it does.


Painterb, have you been called stupid quite a lot?

And now ... to get back to the personal attack. No. Why, have you? Grow up. (To say anything further will only result in a pissing contest, and so I will bite my tongue.)

Zeno
03-22-2002, 12:03 PM
You've been waiting for that ever since choosing your username, haven't you? :-)

*laugh* In my day, we didn't have logic. All we had were paradoxes. Hell, every time I took a step I thought the universe would self-destruct. Kids are spoiled these days with their calculus and sums of infinite series. What will they come up with next?


Originally posted by MikeC:
In practice, the people who most need to read it are exactly the people who never, ever will.

Unfortunately, you're probably right. Moderation may be the only way to go http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/frown.gif

-- Zeno

painterb
03-22-2002, 12:10 PM
I basically agree with you richardve. Woohoo! http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif And a big thanks for the well thought-out and written argument.

I just think all the "instant-flame-replies" are hurting the forum as much as the OT posts.

And, hasn't anyone noticed that it hasn't actually stopped the flood of OT posts?

I think a better solution would be either (1) a new forum here for OT posts (which I've requested) or (2) absolutely *zero* replies to OT posts. (they'll go away on their own when they get no responses). I'll be happy to abide by either.

Has anyone else written to the boardmaster their ideas?

Ozzy
03-22-2002, 12:11 PM
Divide by zero error

MikeC
03-22-2002, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by painterb:
[B]I just think all the "instant-flame-replies" are hurting the forum as much as the OT posts.

Agreed. Apart from anything else, flamefests keep the OT posts up at the top of the board, making the problem look even worse than it really is.



I think a better solution would be either (1) a new forum here for OT posts (which I've requested) or

Wouldn't work, at least not on its own. They don't post Beginner questions in the Beginners forum; what on earth makes you think they'd post OT questions in an OT forum?


(2) absolutely *zero* replies to OT posts. (they'll go away on their own when they get no responses).

Better, but I still don't think it would work. People *do* reply (helpfully) to obvious "bad" posts, either because they're just naturally helpful or because they feel embarrassed on behalf of the board that previous replies have contained so much flamage. There isn't enough consensus on the board to maintain a real embargo on bad questions.

It's the right idea - we need to make sure that repeated "bad" posting is unproductive for the poster. The embargo is worth a try, but I suspect it'd take moderation to really achieve this.

knackered
03-22-2002, 12:31 PM
actually didn't call *anyone* immature or unprofessional


Yes you have - you've used the word 'unprofessional' twice in both this and a previous thread. Someone else used the word immature. I wasn't aiming specifically at you - I hope this doesn't disappoint you.

As for my question about you being called 'stupid', I was attempting to be playful - I should use more smiley faces, I suppose. Don't let it make you angry.

Anyway, this will be my last contribution to this thread (and any future threads on this subject), as it seems to be going nowhere, and I really should get back on with my work (any excuse to skive, that's me!).
You may have the last word http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

dbugger
03-22-2002, 12:35 PM
I think Kilam's idea is the best. Split questions up in subtopics.
"lighting" "textures" "pixel shaders" and so on...

More and more people post questions on this board (more and more interested in OpenGL?). We need some order.

Humus
03-22-2002, 01:15 PM
Yeah, either that or an OT forum for all kinds of question which may not be directly related to OpenGL.

ND
03-22-2002, 03:04 PM
Dear Professor ZENO

Paradox
come from Ancient Greece language and it is an union of PARA + DOXA and it means

PARA=against
DOXA= common opinion.

then Paradox is something that is true but seems being impossible.

thank you for your link!

i've found this:

When You Ask
Choose your forum carefully

I have failed!
Sorry and I apologize.

too many "teachers" for me.
by

Nutty
03-22-2002, 03:22 PM
MikeC, you hit the nail on the head there. Just look at the amount of replies these OT and ranting posts are attracting?! Perhaps people here need an outlet to vent their frustration or something, and see these "annoying" posts as a way to do so.

The solution is SIMPLE!

DO NOT reply to OT posts. When ppl realise their posts are going to be ignored they will stop posting stupid stuff, and IT STOPS THE POSTS BEING BUMPED BACK UPTO THE TOP! As soon as 1 person replies, it shoots straight to the top, and then someone else jumps on the bandwagon! Before you know it the board is full of OT posts with about 30 replies each with everyone just slagging everyone off.

Just ignore OT posts, and DO NOT EVEN REPLY! Then they will drop off the bottom of the board quickly!

IF ppl can't do this, then I suggest a moderated board where moderators can remove/move posts that dont belong here.

Nutty

mcraighead
03-22-2002, 03:30 PM
Nutty is absolutely right. Don't flame people for posting way-OT -- just don't reply. Replying makes things worse by keeping the thread at the top, and encouraging a flamewar (which will keep the threat at the top even longer).

For reasons which should be obvious, I reply selectively.

- Matt

Shag
03-22-2002, 03:43 PM
My point ...

It's impossible to differentiate between advanced and beginner threads, certainly when starting out - it's such a subjective thing to say. And knocking someone for posting in the wrong forum is blatantly unfair.

I assume everyone in here wants to promote OpenGL ... why knock someone else for trying to learn it? Eventually a newcomer will be able to decide what's advanced and what's not. A few friendly pointers will go a long way to HELP them - not hinder.

BTW - I think the NV guys actually make this place. At least we get the 'facts' about certain questions rather than opinion.

ND
03-22-2002, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by mcraighead:

For reasons which should be obvious, I reply selectively.

- Matt

aha aha aha aha ha

mmmh..sorry ..last stupid laugh in the forum of geniuses.

Shag
03-22-2002, 03:51 PM
Humus ... I missed your post - but I think you are right. A seperate forum for rants like this. And if enough people visited it, this topic would be redundant.

Shag
03-22-2002, 03:54 PM
ND ... missed your post too.

This isn't a forum of geniuses. It's a forum full of people who want to help others. It's just a few people that ruin it.

DFrey
03-22-2002, 03:59 PM
How about this suggestion, if a person posts an OT topic in the advanced forum, reply to that person via email instead of in the forum. Or just not reply at all if you aren't the overly helpful type.

zed
03-23-2002, 03:05 AM
>> just don't reply. Replying makes things w <<
unfortunatly like communism http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif it doesnt work like that in the real world. having more forums IMHO is the best solution (cause OT posts aint gonna go away) and they dont have to be just about opengl there are a lot of marinally related topics (yes i know this is www.opengl.org) (http://www.opengl.org)) eg my major computer interest is AI (seriously) having specialized forums like AI/algorithms etc will cut down the offtopic posts (+ will prolly create a more community feel here)
as spock would say 'this is logical' unlike some utopia of 'keeping the status quo + not replying to OT posts'. surely we have some say in these boards
btw http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif i would luv the option of seeeing 'new' posts since i last visited to opengl.org. the guesswork way like now dont cut it im afraid

davepermen
03-23-2002, 03:25 AM
i'm reading parts of this topic, scrolling over most of it. its just very annoying to see that much talkin ABOUT the offtopic and newbie posts.
i don't have much problems about such questions and try to answer them, too..
its in fact a nice expirience to do so. why?
newbie-questions:
try to explain the stuff in a way that even the newbie understands it means you really have to know what you're talkin about. newbies don't want a "call glDoItForMe()" but an explanation why. at least, the ones that are willing to learn http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif
offtopic-questions:
great, lets see if i know this, too.. even if its win32-related, or its math-related, or grafics-related (meshes,data-structures, what ever)

my suggestion: add a love-hate button. so everyone who sees the post can press either i [LOVE] the post or i [HATE] the post. and on the mainpage you see how loved the post is. that way you can easily move over posts no one likes because they are annoying anyways http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

and for the social thinkin people:
[LOVE] and [NOT LOVE THAT MUCH] instead of [LOVE] and [HATE] http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

i'm pissed off of one thing: the angry posts. is it an angry reply or even an angry topic like this. that should not be allowed anymore..

Michael Steinberg
03-23-2002, 06:22 AM
Okay, a topic should be closed in my eyes when the initial question has been answered. I would like best to have ONE forum for everything where something is still happening, and then close all topics when the initial question has been answered and archive them according to their content, possibly putting them into multiple archive forums. Then users can vote in the archives to get something like a top-ten for example. Useless topics can be deleted immediately and topics that nobody posts to anymore can also be deleted. All that done by some volunteer moderator.

Sorry for my english.

richardve
03-23-2002, 08:24 AM
OMG!
This is what I was affraid of: neon86 (http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/Forum3/HTML/005971.html) http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/mad.gif

Please mr. Boardmaster, can we get some moderators??

davepermen
03-23-2002, 08:27 AM
yeah, its difficult to find answers to his topics. and even more difficult simply to understand the relation of it and opengl..

http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

in short, FO neon68..

neon68
03-23-2002, 08:38 AM
http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/frown.gif richardve: http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/redface.gif

BOOOO... oh sorry you are afraid....


davepermen is yhe only my friend...but why FO? I love you....

love and peace

davepermen
03-23-2002, 08:47 AM
love,peace and happyness..

neon68
03-23-2002, 08:51 AM
merry christmas

richardve
03-23-2002, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by neon68:
BOOOO... oh sorry you are afraid....

Do you have any problems wildeyedboyfromfreecloud?

neon68
03-23-2002, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by richardve:
Do you have any problems wildeyedboyfromfreecloud?

no Sherlock Holmes

nemesis
03-25-2002, 05:08 AM
Come on boys!!
It seems we do not have anything to do these days...!!
Funny topic neon86, yeah, really funny... you made us laugh, OK, I think it is enough. Why don't we go back to work now?

-nemesis-

T2k
03-25-2002, 06:21 AM
hehe, i want to have an dirty<X> Forum here, and someone who moves all OT msgs to it, so we can flame it ...

nickels
03-25-2002, 08:20 AM
I think the solution would be if everyone on the forum had a life. Then they wouldn't get so damn attached this forum that they have to try to prove the quantity of their testosterone by deciding whether other peoples posts were OT, advanced or whatever.

But this is difficult for us computer types, I suppose...

It is ok, though, really. I go to the beginners to read about opengl, but the advanced forum is good when the T.V. breaks and I can't get Jerry Springer...

[This message has been edited by nickels (edited 03-25-2002).]

rts
03-25-2002, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by knackered:
What is the definition of a 'flame'?

A sort of "Art of War" for flaming: http://www.advicemeant.com/flame/02strategy.shtml

A catalogue of the various flame warriors (which one are you?): http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html

To put this thread to rest, I'm going to bite the bullet and invoke Godwin's Law (http://www.godwinslaw.com/) by saying that you're all Nazis.

http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by rts (edited 03-25-2002).]

[This message has been edited by rts (edited 03-25-2002).]

Ozzy
03-26-2002, 12:38 AM
Well guys, my little addition to this thread should tend to a moderated solution for the forum..
Dividing or Subdividing sections should *not* solve the problems of *our* favorite forum. ;)
a few weeks now, i've sent (certainly as many of you) *my* ideas about new sections to add and so on & so forth!! but OOoops now i've got some regrets cz it's silly!

For people who use Irc or such things, u now for sure that flaming or many *rude* ;)) people are quite a lot! (certainly a society prob then? it's OT anyway:)
So, what is missing now that this OpenGL forum as grown & grown since many years?
As i said! Moderations options!
For example, the freqent contributor level is really given to anybody and it has always make me:LOL.. (then i would like to be contributor *only* for ever)
so what? why not make this possible boardmasters?? Should it be possible to vote for anybody who post interesting questions and so on?? like the'+' for Irc moderators and then after a cartain amount of +votes & time u should being moderator (and then also vote yourself etc)..

Finally, we should also work with another section (adding one only) -an intermediate section -
Listen:
Beginers section should be for everyone to post & reply (newbies/+/moderators->frequent contributors)
the Intermediate section should be a place where newbies/+/freqContribors can post but only freqContributors could reply & vote.
as a conclusion in the advanced section only freqContributors should post & reply a why not continue to vote to maintain their status! ;))

I hipHope u get the idea?! ;)

TchOo!

Morglum
03-26-2002, 01:45 AM
A simple idea :

There should be, very visible on these forums, a (link to a page containing a) list of links to :
- other opengl communities (www.openglforums.com ...)
- tutorial sites (nehe.gamedev.net ...)
- other related communities (c/c++, 3dsmax...)

Very easy to build & maintain (should not contain more than 20 or 30 links). And the definitive solution against off-topic posting.

What do you think of this ?
Morglum

Kilam Malik
03-26-2002, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by Ozzy:
Finally, we should also work with another section (adding one only) -an intermediate section

I don't think this is a good idea. Many people don't know where to post their questions. With three levels they even get more confused where their question belongs to.

My proposal is still:
- Make forums for each type of questions (light, math, pixel shaders...) and kick the difference between beginners and advanced.
- Also make a forum for OT.
- Moderators. Frequent contributors could get moderators, but only by election. Not automatically after xxx posts.
- Make an entry page, where you could see all new topics from all forums. This makes it easier for people who wants to read all.
- Also, the users should be trimmed to write topics where others knows what he means. Not things like "I have a question...". Maybe somekind of posting codex the people should read.

Kilam.

Ozzy
03-26-2002, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by Kilam Malik:
[B] Many people don't know where to post their questions. With three levels they even get more confused where their question belongs to.


Well, they couldn't post in some sections if they don't have the rights for! that's was i meant. ;)

Kilam Malik
03-26-2002, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Ozzy:
Well, they couldn't post in some sections if they don't have the rights for! that's was i meant. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif



Thats absolutely ignorant against beginners. The purpose should be, that people who has a solution to a question simply answer it. But if you have forums restricted to advanced programmers, then you don't give the beginners a chance to learn.
I think, that even the splitting in beginners and advanced as it is now is bad enough. Many advanced programmers only read the advanced forum and the beginners don't get their answers. Thats why you see beginners posts in the advanced forum. So we should put this forums together.

Kilam.

john
03-26-2002, 03:33 PM
I think, that even the splitting in beginners and advanced as it is now is bad enough. Many advanced programmers only read the advanced forum and the beginners don't get their answers. Thats why you see beginners posts in the advanced forum. So we should put this forums together.

btu that would just annoy the advanced users. if they only read the advanced forum, then its probably for a very good reason. If you lump beginner and advanced topics in one forum (thereby forcing advanced users to effectively read both) then whats the bet you ostracise the advanced users?


There should be, very visible on these forums, a (link to a page containing a) list of links to :
- other opengl communities (www.openglforums.com ...)
- tutorial sites (nehe.gamedev.net ...)
- other related communities (c/c++, 3dsmax...)

but there already is a link. The link to the discussion forum is 3 or so links ~under~ the link to the FAQ. Presumedly if the user is clever enough to find the link to the discussion forum that they're reading from top to bottom and would come across the FAQ link first (and ignore it because they're lazy?). I'm pretty sure nehe is already referenced from this site in the FAQ.

cheers
John

t0y
03-26-2002, 03:41 PM
Hi! I never posted anything here, but this has been one of my favorite source of OpenGL knowledge for some months now...

It's obvious something IS wrong with this board and/or its users...

My solution:
1) OpenGL is not only API calls! New forums for specific areas are needed, not many thought;

2) No more begginer/advanced differenciation. I'm not a begginner but i'm not advanced either. You should never make assumptions on this based on the number of posts (specially if most are "Search in Google");

3) Moderation. OT posts MUST be removed. It's difficult to find decent posts in these days

A good way to differenciate the complexity of the question would be to create a Red Book forum for questions/doubst that could be answered in the scope of this book...

My Ä0.02...

[This message has been edited by t0y (edited 03-26-2002).]

john
03-26-2002, 07:27 PM
No more begginer/advanced differenciation. I'm not a begginner but i'm not advanced either.

and


A good way to differenciate the complexity of the question would be to create a Red Book forum for questions/doubst that could be answered in the scope of this book...

are contradicting statements. IMHO, the beginners' forum is basically intended for understanding the red book ;-) (or, so it seems)

cheers,
John

My Ä0.02...

t0y
03-27-2002, 02:19 PM
I'm sorry but it's not a contradition.

There are questions that are in the scope of the Red Book that can be considered advanced...

Jorge Alves

john
03-27-2002, 02:49 PM
I had two points to make

the first was that you said there should be no more differentiation, but then you offer a way to differentiate topics. that's a contradiction: either you want it, or you don't; you can't have both.

my second point is that the red book doesn't cover any advanced topics, IMHO.

cheers,
John

Robbo
03-27-2002, 02:51 PM
Sorry guys but I think you are missing an important point (I read most of page 1, maybe it was mentioned on this page!):

I consider something to be `advanced' when I don't know how to do it. How are we to determine what is beginner and what is advanced? Sure, switching on the lights is beginner stuff - shaders are advanced - but what about the problems I'm having with alpha on multi-texture? Ok - advanced to some people, maybe simple to others.

I like the idea of moderating `up' or `down' but why create an increased level of complexity to what is a very easy to use forum? I've seen forums die because they tried to do too much.

So - I think we should put up with the easy questions - I myself have asked a few before - lets have a little patience - pointing out that a post should be in beginners is part of the learning process for beginners!

t0y
03-27-2002, 03:57 PM
john:

My main point was that there should be no differenciation between beginners and advanced OpenGL programmers.

As Robbo said, what is beginners stuff for you may be advanced for others...

A Red Book forum would be where most doubts could be answered without making people think their IQ is below average.

Another forum could be for extensions (most are advanced topics). This will make it easy for people to choose in which forum to post.

If one considers himself advanced, but isn't using any extensions, then the red book forum would be the way to go.

A moderator would also have an important role in redirecting the posts to right place of course.

I'ts just an opinion. I guess by now, most people agree that changes are needed...

Jorge Alves

dorbie
03-27-2002, 09:36 PM
I think advanced and basic forums should be merged.

Even without this people shouldn't post smack because a question lands in the wrong forum. If you don't want to answer it then don't post.

People who post that this forum is 5hit should be ashamed. If they want to contribute then post some answers.

OT posts are OT, but don't flame over easy vs difficult.

[This message has been edited by dorbie (edited 03-27-2002).]

Robbo
03-28-2002, 12:01 AM
Yes! Thats something I forgot. Moderators should be allowed to DELETE flames. Overall, this forum is quite friendly and good natured (apart from this thread, ironically enough), lets keep it that way.

TheDo
03-28-2002, 11:32 AM
Something that seems to work at gamedev is to have a few forums, with moderators that can move,delete and close threads. If a topic is way OT then it could be moved, or if is WAY WAY OT it could be closed. People will always post in the wrong forum. Human nature I guess.....

Neil

dorbie
03-28-2002, 12:00 PM
UBB doesn't support some of the things suggested, and a /. style system would be worse than what exists now IMHO.

Moderators can edit and delete threads or posts. I'd be in favor of moderation if good moderators could be found.

dorbie
03-28-2002, 12:13 PM
I just read the Eric Raymond posting URL given earlier in the thread, it is excellent.
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Shag and others should skip to the part titled "On Not Reacting Like A Loser".

nickels
03-28-2002, 02:13 PM
What I have learned from this discussion is the same the that I have learned watching the way people drive:

1) Some people are egotistical ^$$holes.
2) Some people are so uptight that they walk funny.
3) Some people are normal.
4) Some people are considerate.

I think that is the only conclusion to be drawn from this thread. Solution? Move to another planet. Or get religious and kill everyone not like you. Conditions 1&2 are incurable, since they have something to do with how one is raised and can't be remedied once the damage is done.

knackered
03-28-2002, 02:54 PM
Pah!
Happy easter everyone - enjoy the bank holidays.

dorbie
03-28-2002, 08:48 PM
Nickels et.al.

Forums like this are a valuable resource to some. Those who can stay on topic and have the skill to form simple coherent questions get unparalleled assistance here. Often you can't get this level of expertise elsewhere.

That and the long hours volunteers put in here is undermined by OT posts.

If you want to improve things don't bitch, post some answers!

zeckensack
03-29-2002, 08:32 AM
An OT forum is stoopid and a contradiction in itself. This german board (http://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/index.php?s=) has a 'spam and playground' forum, which is nice but will never serve any purpose besides being flat out funny sometimes. Why should opengl.org bother with something like that? Anyone coming to an OpenGL forum should be able to understand that it's about OpenGL. Doesn't get any easier than that.

And towards everybody saying that this place has hit rock bottom, that's just silly. Take a look at Madonion.com (http://discuss.madonion.com/forum/wwwthreads.pl) . Then you know what 'rock bottom' means.

nickels
03-29-2002, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by dorbie:
Nickels et.al.
...
That and the long hours volunteers put in here is undermined by OT posts.
...


Wow, I didn't realize it was such a serious dilemna. The world will never be the same...

The point here is not whether OT posts are wasting any one's time. That is simple, ignore OT posts if they bother you.
The issue is that I am sick of reading ^$$hole jerks acting like they own this form and telling everyone else what is and isn't appropriate. That they would do such is proof enough to me that they are ignorant ba$^%&ds.
It is not their place, it is obnoxious, and they need to stop that stupid #$%^&*(.

Period.

zed
03-29-2002, 11:44 AM
while we're redesigning these boards we need to get rid of the ****ing censorship, some bastards keep on sticking asterixs in my words , wankers grrrrr

dorbie
03-29-2002, 04:40 PM
nickels, I have generally avoided this, but I do see a need for discouraging OT posts. You criticize others for being rude but you're the one calling others names, and THEY serve a purpose which is abundantly clear. Your only justification is that this isn't so serious. The signal to noise ratio is important in forums. That is why usenet is divided into multiple groups, and why we have specialist forums like OpenGL.org & it's forums. You can belittle the purpose, but it is very seriously essential. Why don't we all just post all messages to a single big group? Obviously because the noise level would make it useless, filters are what make information useful.

I was worried about some comments made in this and other threads so I did a little research on some of the posts made by the most vocal critics to see what the heck had happened around here recently, after this I was pretty surprised by their level of abuse of this forum. If their questions weren't incoherent, they were eggregiously off topic, and the followups ignored help offered and insulted the contributors. To do this and then complain bitterly takes some chutzpah.

It is not OK to post off topic just because you think you will reach some knowledgable people. That is abuse, there are usenet groups out there for any question you can imagine, feel free to use them. Some are even read by experts, unfortunately they have a worse signal to noise ratio than here, but that's OK because for you you claim it's not so serious.

Nobody is pretending to talk about important world changing events, we're talking about this forum in this forum, and as far as I can see you're the one getting most upset and doing all the name calling. On the one hand you want to pretend it's not important on the other you attack people calling them every name under the Sun. You claiming it's not so important does not strengthen your case, it just makes me wonder why the heck you bother with all the name calling. In the context of the success of this forum eliminating OT posts while stopping people flaming for no good reason is important.

I think merging the beginner/advanced forums and adding a general graphics questions forum would help. It'll stop the ongoing "that's a beginners question" nonsense and give the generic graphics questions a legitimate place to be posted. Everyone else can get justifiably flamed if they post.

If the beginners forum is there posters should try and use it. It doesn't take great insight to figure out that a question about a surface normal is a beginners question, or that someone on the second chapter of the red book should probably be posting in the beginners section, but I wouldn't criticize anyone for posting an easy question here.


[This message has been edited by dorbie (edited 03-29-2002).]