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Zulfiqar Malik
10-18-2005, 11:24 PM
I have noticed that most of the time people are answering questions that have either been asked before or there is a plethora of information available on those, either online, or in GL specification docs. This is a great redundancy in my humble opinion.

I want to suggest to the moderators (or anyone else who might have some authority), to start up a wiki section on the opengl.org website. That way people can put up their knowledge and experiences online and possibly a lot of problems will be solved from there and the forum will then become more focussed towards solving "real" problems.

Forgive my ignorance if such a wiki already exists on some other site, but googling didn't reveal anything and i want it to be on the OpenGL website.

bulldogs
10-24-2005, 05:17 PM
yeah i totally agree!

the amount of times questions like "how do i install opengl 2.0" get's asked, well ...haha alot!! ...a wiki would be a great way help to solve this. I know personally i get sick of answering the same questions so i don't really bother too much anymore.

marco_dup1
10-24-2005, 11:40 PM
A wiki would be really great.

marco

Stephen_H
10-25-2005, 01:08 PM
That would be awesome!

marco_dup1
10-26-2005, 12:05 AM
Have someone server space? I know there is a game dev opengl wiki but I haven't heard about it much. I believe its better to begin and than to migrate it opengl.org. What I would really like is a "design pattern" part.

zed
10-26-2005, 03:54 PM
im all for it
a good oportunity to try out the post poll thingee, its sits there so folorn at the botoom of the screen

Zulfiqar Malik
10-26-2005, 07:33 PM
Yeah, but i don't know how to do it without opengl.org support. One of the main reason why the wiki would be good is because a lot of senior gl programmers don't reply to posts anymore (Eric Lengyl and some nvidia engineers). But i am sure they can post an occasional article on the wiki, and since these are the most experienced people in the industry, i am sure their articles will be useful for everyone.

Tom, Eric?

nrg
10-26-2005, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by marco:
Have someone server space? I know there is a game dev opengl wiki but I haven't heard about it much. I believe its better to begin and than to migrate it opengl.org. What I would really like is a "design pattern" part.I have server space available and could provide wiki space for opengl use..

Obli
10-27-2005, 12:32 AM
Issue 1) Shall this interact with "official" wikis?
:)
DISCUSSION: I believe there would be interesting opportunities in doing this directly in standard wikipedia. The same medium seems to be quite crippled with trash so there's risk to miss visibility. The higher amount of hits will make vandalism and simply "wrong revisions" much more probable.

By the way, I'll possibly drop a line to Wikipedia founder (I believe it's called Terry Walsh). OpenGL is a very important thing and I believe its related wiki must be done with some care. I mean, I hardly believe it's a good idea to put up a service like this without asking from "upper" raccomandations. Definetly not something which can be decided with a few forum posts.

michael.bauer
10-27-2005, 12:59 AM
Hi,

A wiki would be GREAT!

P.S. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that this forum is not extremely well known. Maybe there are other forums (not known to me) where there is more activity. Remember, we have only about ten posts per day, that's a rather small number isn't it, and a major part of them are questions like "can I do graphics with opengl..." ;-)

Racoon
10-27-2005, 01:31 AM
Remember also, exist are positive sides of common forum.

Racoon
10-27-2005, 01:37 AM
If you will "extremally well known" then write to here extremally problems.

marco_dup1
10-27-2005, 03:29 AM
We need webspace and we links from opengl.org, ati, nvidia, nehe etc.. And we need content otherwise it will be a desert. There should be links to other lessons, tutorials etc.. I'm not so sure that Wikipedia is a so good idea because of external links.

Graphic Remedy
10-27-2005, 04:05 AM
Hi All

We can host such a wiki on our website and offer moderating services.

Let us know if you are interested in it.

The gDEBgger team
www.gremedy.com (http://www.gremedy.com)

Obli
10-27-2005, 04:23 AM
Originally posted by marco:
I'm not so sure that Wikipedia is a so good idea because of external links.What is the problem here exactly?
Last time I read about external links, they were encouraged to give "external" proof of concept, thus making the article more trustable.

marco_dup1
10-27-2005, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by Graphic Remedy:
Hi All

We can host such a wiki on our website and offer moderating services.

Let us know if you are interested in it.

The gDEBgger team
www.gremedy.com (http://www.gremedy.com) This sounds great but there should some start content in it before we start. One way maybe would not only answer in the forum but also write it in the wiki. For this there should be a basic structure.

Zulfiqar Malik
10-27-2005, 07:39 AM
Yeah, we need a template which the people can adhere to. We can start off by "re-writing" some nVidia and ATi articles, following that template. Somebody's gotta make a start :) .

marco_dup1
10-27-2005, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Zulfiqar Malik:
Yeah, we need a template which the people can adhere to. We can start off by "re-writing" some nVidia and ATi articles, following that template. Somebody's gotta make a start :) .There should be a FAQ. Maybe people give us their permission to use their stuff.

knackered
10-27-2005, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by mlb:
P.S. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that this forum is not extremely well known.You are wrong, this forum is extremely well known and respected. Angus Dorbie, Mark Kilgard, Simon Green, Charles Bloom, Cass Everitt, Tom Nuydens... are just a few of the high profile contributors to this forum, and doubtless many more under alias'.
It's a good thing there's very few posts, because quality is what matters.

marco_dup1
10-27-2005, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by knackered:

Originally posted by mlb:
P.S. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that this forum is not extremely well known.You are wrong, this forum is extremely well known and respected. Angus Dorbie, Mark Kilgard, Simon Green, Charles Bloom, Cass Everitt, Tom Nuydens... are just a few of the high profile contributors to this forum, and doubtless many more under alias'.
It's a good thing there's very few posts, because quality is what matters.Don't forget Korval and knackered! :-)

Tom Nuydens
10-27-2005, 01:45 PM
I would definitely help out if this idea goes through. I can easily host a wiki on Delphi3D.net if needed, but I've also mailed the opengl.org webmaster about this. To be continued...

Brolingstanz
10-27-2005, 06:49 PM
I have noticed that most of the time people are answering questions that have either been asked before or there is a plethora of information available on those, either online, or in GL specification docs. This is a great redundancy in my humble opinion.if people are either too lazy or too ignorant (or both) to search for their answers, what makes you think a wiki is going to help?

I've nothing against an alternative information source, mind you, but let's not kid ourselves here. the people asking these questions are newbies, and they will proudly continue their time honored tradition, wiki or no.

tamlin
10-27-2005, 06:49 PM
Another thing worth considering could be (r/o) mirrors.

If this takes off there's no dubt in my mind it'll be a success. As such, people will probably start to depend on it. I think we all know how "fun" it is to try to access some info you want, only to find out a carrier has routing problems, or the site in question has technical difficulties - usually at the very time you really need to reference the info. :)

My 0.02 about (master site) name:
wiki.opengl.org. Whether this is actually hosted by opengl.org or a DNS pointer somewhere else (f.ex. delphi3d) isn't that important, but I think the name is. Would the opengl.org DNS maintainer see this as acceptable?

Zulfiqar Malik
10-27-2005, 08:25 PM
Oringinally posted by bonehead

if people are either too lazy or too ignorant (or both) to search for their answers, what makes you think a wiki is going to help?

I've nothing against an alternative information source, mind you, but let's not kid ourselves here. the people asking these questions are newbies, and they will proudly continue their time honored tradition, wiki or no.

The main reason for that is because the information is not centralized and googling will usually give you a wealth of other useless links. GL specs might be a bit too "technical" for some people to handle. A wiki would centralize a lot of information. Take the example of TBN basis question for example. I have seen this question a gazillion times in the one and half years i have been on this forum and each time i give reference to an old thread in which Eric Lengyl gives a good explanation of generating TBN space, alongwith very well written code. Now imagine, if that same post would have been up on a wiki! If the wiki gets large enough, even google will start returing search links from the it. Wikipedia is a good example, and a lot of people (including me) have started using it for general information on a lot of topics (i regularly use it for information on different topics on astrophysics).
There is no doubt in my mind that it will be beneficial, but it will definitely take some time and effort to set it up and get it going.

marco_dup1
10-28-2005, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by bonehead:
if people are either too lazy or too ignorant (or both) to search for their answers, what makes you think a wiki is going to help?

I've nothing against an alternative information source, mind you, but let's not kid ourselves here. the people asking these questions are newbies, and they will proudly continue their time honored tradition, wiki or no.[/QB]Have you ever searched the form? I know the information was there but I don't find it. A wiki would be much better structured.

What about the license? They some like Wikipedia?

Ffelagund
10-28-2005, 12:41 AM
I can offer web space for a mirror too if it is needed. I think that a wiki could be a great thing for OpenGL users. Think in those little details that are only known after many hours of investigation that could be easily found in well-organized wiki :)

knackered
10-28-2005, 02:32 AM
One thing i've noticed about this search function on this forum....it's incredibly slow and has a stupidly small limit on the search string.
It's actually pretty useless at getting an answer to a specific question. General questions are no problem, "Tangent Binormal Normal" would just about fit into the search box, but would generate a huuuuuge number of search results.

Brolingstanz
10-28-2005, 05:28 AM
wow, you guys are right, the search function has gone south for the winter. looks like you get a 36 character limit on the string and a limit of 200 on the results, starting from the year 2000. am i seeing things here? A new forum search function is definitely in order, or an immeasurably brisk tweaking.

knackered
10-28-2005, 09:37 AM
It's been that way since I started frequenting this place, so that's at least 4 years. I've mentioned it a couple of times, but they've never fixed it, or even acknowledged the problem. I really don't think the opengl.org web masters ever read the contents of their forums.
So, the next time you tell someone to 'use the freekin search button', remember it's actually a huge amount of work to find an answer to a specific question just because of the limit on keywords. I waited with baited breath when they 'revamped' the site a couple of years ago, but no...the search function remained unchanged. The single most important function on this website is sorely broken, and nobody seems to care.
Why don't they just let google take over their search function?

V-man
10-28-2005, 04:41 PM
I would be more interested in a catalog of problems.

"I ran my program that has this code on this video card with drivers XX and it has this issue. Here's a code sample."

Then someone else responds "I can confirm this"

Then months later.. resolved, or maybe not.

It would serve a dual purpose. We learn of problems and maybe avoid them and save time.
When a new driver comes out, we test it. It would be like a public quality control.

Tom Nuydens
10-29-2005, 12:22 AM
Okay, here's the deal.

OpenGL.org will be undergoing server migration in (probably) late November, and a Wiki was already on the list of things to add when this migration is complete (the current server, apparently, does not offer PHP/MySQL).

MediaWiki has already been installed on the new server, so that I can try to get things on a roll. I will try to work out a basic structure for the Wiki asap, and also integrate some content from the current FAQ page. If you have any opinions on how you think the Wiki should be organized, be sure to send them to me (tom@delphi3d.net). Public access to the Wiki will be provided after the server migration is complete.

knackered
10-29-2005, 12:49 AM
Is the forum search function going to be improved?
I really think that's more important than a wiki.

dorbie
10-29-2005, 07:43 PM
are just a few of the high profile contributors to this forum, and doubtless many more under alias'.
Don't forget Korval and knackered! :-)One day we shall uncover the high profile personality behind the knackered alias :-).

dorbie
10-29-2005, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by knackered:
Is the forum search function going to be improved?
I really think that's more important than a wiki.Yea searching is horribly broken. I've mentioned it to the webmaster before, but I don't think it's ever been as bad as it is now.

SirKnight
10-29-2005, 09:36 PM
Is anything going to be done about those damn annoying drop down menus on the front page? I'm always making them pop down constantly when I don't want them to. I hate those freakin' menus. :mad: It would be better if they only came down when clicked, like a program's menu.

-SirKnight

knackered
10-30-2005, 03:11 AM
One day we shall uncover the high profile personality behind the knackered alias :-).My name is not important. :)
And I'd get the sack if it were revealed that I insult people for a hobby.

zed
10-30-2005, 03:27 PM
One day we shall uncover the high profile personality behind the knackered alias :-)after studying the evidence ive come to the conclusion korval is a vulcan
live long and prosper

knackered
10-31-2005, 01:39 AM
...or a turing test.
it almost convinced you, zed.

Dj3hut1
11-04-2005, 05:34 AM
Hello,

I think the idea of an OpenGL-Wiki is very good.

I have collected a small list of subjects.
Not all of them have directly to do with OpenGL, f.e. some have more to do with mathematics or are (advanced) techniques independent from the graphic language, but i hope there could be perhaps found some pieces of code which implement a certain technique with OpenGL or OGSL (f.e. for bumpmapping). :D

Here is the list : wikiopengl.xml (http://opengl.horustempel.de/Wiki/wikiopengl.xml)

This list is not complete, but i hope that some of these themes could be found in the wiki.

dj3hut1

Brainter
11-04-2005, 10:27 PM
agree!

Zengar
11-05-2005, 05:45 AM
It is the best idea that I ever seen on this board :-)

It could also possibly include some basic tutorials for beginners, like "Hello, OpenGL!" ;-)

azazello
11-07-2005, 06:26 AM
one more idea for a wiki - updated version of Tom's hardware info - http://www.delphi3d.net/hardware/index.php.
Not only on a MS Windows platform, and more interactive, with a sorting by GPU's/drivers generations, context parameters, etc :-)

azazello
11-07-2005, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by Dj3hut1:

Here is the list : wikiopengl.xml (http://opengl.horustempel.de/Wiki/wikiopengl.xml)

This list is not complete, but i hope that some of these themes could be found in the wiki.
it's really incomplete. I found a HLSL, Cg, but not a GLSL :-)

Dj3hut1
11-08-2005, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by azazello:

Originally posted by Dj3hut1:

Here is the list : wikiopengl.xml (http://opengl.horustempel.de/Wiki/wikiopengl.xml)

This list is not complete, but i hope that some of these themes could be found in the wiki.
it's really incomplete. I found a HLSL, Cg, but not a GLSL :-)O no, that is really embarrassing for me :rolleyes: .
I will add it as soon as possible.

dj3hut1

Tom Nuydens
11-09-2005, 12:01 AM
Just a quick update: I went ahead and worked out a skeleton for the Wiki that roughly combines the current FAQ pages with the organization of these forums. These would be the top-level categories I had in mind:

Getting started: setting up the runtime and development environment General OpenGL: most of the current FAQ stuff OpenGL extensions: discussion of individual extensions Shading languages: what it says Performance: also what it says Math and algorithms: vector and matrix math, application design, rendering techniques, ... Platform specifics: Win32/Linux/MacOS/... specific issues Hardware specifics: NVidia/ATI/... specific issues (e.g. driver bugs, avoiding software fallbacks) Related toolkits and APIs: GLU, Glut, extension loading, ... History of OpenGL: what it says
Following Dj3hut1's suggestion, a glossary of terms might also be a useful addition.
I've been moving content from the current FAQ in there, and I'm also trying to put at least something in every other category to serve as a sort of template for future additions.
Comments? Questions?

azazello
11-09-2005, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by Tom Nuydens:
Comments? Questions?OGL ES?

Zulfiqar Malik
11-09-2005, 12:52 AM
Great work Tom! The whole point of the wiki is that the contributions of the community will soon make it large enough to be a useful knowledgebase.
Keep up the good work. If you need any helping hand as far as writing articles is concerned, feel free to bug me.

knackered
11-09-2005, 01:51 AM
so the difference between this and something like gamedev/opengl.org is that anyone can contribute and edit the content?
I can imagine this will result in a glut of waffle, garbage and misinformation unless the catagories are really specific.

dorbie
11-15-2005, 12:52 AM
That's OK knacky, you'll be there to post corrections and revert the crap away ;-).

knackered
11-15-2005, 01:13 AM
I suppose I can be persuaded to appoint myself the role of wiki-moderator.
I can see the amusement value in deleting all the good stuff and leaving the drivel. It's the vandal in me rising to the surface.

marco_dup1
11-15-2005, 01:17 AM
What about multilanguage support? For beginners its sometimes easier to begin with their native language.

knackered
11-16-2005, 01:36 AM
That would be another project, I would imagine - a site that contains the opengl wiki translated into whatever language. The primary wiki should be in english, because that is the primary language of OpenGL.
As an aside - I would certainly recommend that someone should learn English before learning OpenGL - it will come in far more useful in the long term.

KRONOS
11-16-2005, 05:27 AM
Agree on thew idea of multilanguage support. That would be a really good thing, specially for people starting with OpenGL (of course, the primary wiki being in English).
It would be nice to see and to be able to supply links to the wiki translated into my native language (portuguese)

marco_dup1
11-16-2005, 06:11 AM
Which wiki engine is supporting multilanguage like wikipedia? And what just is happen? How is working on a wiki and can I help?

Dark Photon
11-22-2005, 04:43 AM
marco:
Which wiki engine is supporting multilanguage like wikipedia?MediaWiki ( http://sourceforge.net/projects/wikipedia/ ) is the wiki engine behind Wikipedia. We converted over to it at work (from phpWiki) and are very satisfied with it.

Tom Nuydens
11-22-2005, 06:50 AM
OpenGL.org will use MediaWiki as well.

Corrail
12-16-2005, 03:26 AM
Any news about the Wiki?

Phobeus
12-20-2005, 07:06 AM
Great to hear, that you plan to setup a wiki. Our german opengl community started a wiki about one year in the past (http://wiki.delphigl.com/) to translate opengl/sdl function descriptions and to collect articles about technologies sombody might want to be used. We decided to use MediaWiki that's and had so far a pretty nice time. However you might soon run in trouble cause spam bots starts to use the wiki for their advertise. Due this we closed edit of the wiki from non-forum registerd users a month ago. So keep on moving, a wiki is something pretty nice ;)