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knackered
09-04-2002, 01:57 AM
I've been trying to come up with a nice generic way of setting up surface materials/shaders in my renderer. A scripting system seems to be the best approach.
It should include, for multiple passes:-
state setup
vertex attribute stream binding
pixel/vertex shader binding
texture stage setup
additional utility texture objects
sockets for external app defined variables (such as time, weather, animation frame)
etc.
Basically, I want an open ended, future proof(ish) system for setting up shaders/combiners.

Now, I noticed the short pdf ATI produced which describes the system they use in their RenderMonkey shading system, and I've played around with RenderMonkey itself, which seems nice enough. I don't understand how I can make use of RenderMonkey, however, because it doesn't appear to export any script files etc.

Does anyone have an opinion on the way RenderMonkey does things, or suggestions of papers/documents that I might find useful while addressing this issue?
Thanks.

Asgard
09-04-2002, 05:28 AM
RenderMonkey does export a script file...well, kind of...it writes XML project file. The XML files have all the shaders' source and all the render state information you need to render the scene. By extending that XML file with your own tags, you could add additional, application-specific information.
I think RenderMonkey is a cool tool to develop shaders, but what I don't like about it is, that it is Direct3D-specific.

As for other options, you could look at the effect files that DirectX 8 has. Or, of course, you can just define your own script language.

Regards.

ehart
09-04-2002, 06:18 AM
I believe RenderMonkey may have the sort of functionality you are looking for, it just isn't easily accessible in the beta that has been released so far. RenderMonkey is a simple shader development tool like you can presently see, but it is also a plugin frame work. Virtually the entire tool is built on the plugin frame work, and it allows for additional plugins for exporting from its internal data format.

The plugin system is not documented in the initial beta, but it is scheduled to be included in the next release. The idea of the plugins is to allow developers to adapt it to their own uses. As far as D3D versus OGL, the previewer itself is a plugin.

I'll forward this threasd along to one of the team members to see if they can comment further.

-Evan

SirKnight
09-04-2002, 06:26 AM
I just read more about RenderMonkey cuz before i didnt really know much about it other than a shader preview system. First i must say RenderMonkey ROCKS! http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif The thing that i am pleased about is that it does _not_ require an ATI Radeon to use it, according to the sys requirements. Also i seem to remember something about RenderMonkey being able to parse RenderMan shaders, is that true? If so that's cool. One thing that i think would also be good is to be able, i guess through a plugin, would be to allow RenderMonkey to parse Cg shaders. Since the source for the Cg compiler is now available that might be able to become a reality. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

-SirKnight

knackered
09-04-2002, 06:50 AM
Thanks for the answers.
I too really like the way it handles, and I'm pretty sure I could make really good use of it if I had the elusive SDK that's mentioned in various web pages. Unfortunately, I need something pretty quick, as in within the next 2 weeks, so I may have to give it a miss for now.
I've got a fair way into writing my own monkey, but it will never parse renderman scripts! That would be a very nice feature to play around with.
Cg support? Well, that should be fairly straightforward to add, I would have thought - you can just use the existing nvidia backend - just pipe the Cg text file editable in rendermonkey through to the nvidia profile and you're done.
The D3d vs OGL issue is straightforward too - as the constants defined in the state dialogs in rendermonkey seem to have an almost 1-to-1 equivalence with OpenGL. I can understand why ATI have held back producing a opengl preview plugin...it would have to be ATI specific, such is the mess of opengl.
BTW, I can only get the default shader to work on my geforce4 ti, all the rest fail the pixelshader check.

PH
09-04-2002, 07:00 AM
BTW, I can only get the default shader to work on my geforce4 ti, all the rest fail the pixelshader check.


All the other shaders use PS1.4. Such is the mess of Direct3D. Just kiddding, sorry. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

knackered
09-04-2002, 07:02 AM
Yep, but that's a hardware limitation, not software (ie. not Direct3d's fault, but NVidia lagging behind) http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by knackered (edited 09-04-2002).]

chrisATI
09-04-2002, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by SirKnight:
I just read more about RenderMonkey cuz before i didnt really know much about it other than a shader preview system. First i must say RenderMonkey ROCKS! http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif The thing that i am pleased about is that it does _not_ require an ATI Radeon to use it, according to the sys requirements. Also i seem to remember something about RenderMonkey being able to parse RenderMan shaders, is that true? If so that's cool. One thing that i think would also be good is to be able, i guess through a plugin, would be to allow RenderMonkey to parse Cg shaders. Since the source for the Cg compiler is now available that might be able to become a reality. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

-SirKnight

rendermonkey can indeed compile RenderMan shaders but this functionality is not exposed in the current beta. i'm not sure when this functionality will be exposed (it's gated by DirectX 9.0). as for opengl support... you can wait for the SDK to be released and then write opengl plugins but this introduces new problems (ie. as far as i know, there is no ARB extention for fragment shaders). as someone pointed out, the render state and texture state maps very nicely to opengl state so this is another option (just read in the rendermonkey xml workspace and start setting opengl state). i'm glad to see people using the tool http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

knackered
09-04-2002, 09:27 AM
If you could rush out another beta with the sdk included, I for one would be very grateful.
After playing with rendermonkey, I've decided to dig out my old radeon 8500 to give it a proper once over - god I hope your drivers have improved since the last time I tried the damn thing, otherwise I'm in for a long night. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

SirKnight
09-04-2002, 09:28 AM
You are right there is no ARB fragment shader extension yet. But that _will_ be in OpenGL 1.5 so maybe next year? http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif Using the stardard opengl render states would be a nice option to have in there. It could be made like in that stanford paper (i think it was stanford) where a renderman shader was broken down into as many passes as needed to run in standard opengl. Of course for us NV people, we can always use nvparse w/ PS1.1. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

RenderMonkey seems so far to be a big hit and I believe it's only going to get better. It was a very smart move to design it the way it is, with the plugin system and all. Very nice.

-SirKnight

knackered
09-04-2002, 12:35 PM
Well, I installed the radeon8500, latest drivers etc.
Rendermonkey is nice, but unfortunately I discovered that ATI's favourite colour is still BLUE. Click one of the bumpmapping effects, go into the RenderStates, change the fillmode to points - bang, blue screen.
Please don't tell me its because rendermonkey is in beta - beta or not, no software should be able to cause the driver to blue screen, because a driver should never allow itself to get in such a mess.
I wish ATI would make the nvidia driver writers an offer they can't refuse. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by knackered (edited 09-04-2002).]

davepermen
09-04-2002, 12:45 PM
hehe, nvidia loves blue as well.. on about every xp machine its easy to get bluescreens, their xp drivers are really not that well.. and well, on win2000 as well.. on win98 you normally not know what caused the fault http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

Zeno
09-04-2002, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by davepermen:
hehe, nvidia loves blue as well.. on about every xp machine its easy to get bluescreens, their xp drivers are really not that well.. and well, on win2000 as well.. on win98 you normally not know what caused the fault http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif


Bah, I've programmed 8 hours a day for 2 years on Win2k using nvidia drivers and can still count my bluescreens on one hand http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif.

Are you sure that there isn't something wrong with your hardware, Dave? Bad memory sticks or heat problem or something?

-- Zeno

[This message has been edited by Zeno (edited 09-04-2002).]

SirKnight
09-04-2002, 02:06 PM
I would have to dissagree with you on that Dave. I only remember getting a bluescreen once that was caused by the video drivers. Thats because i had a hardware problem and it was causing all kinds of wierd things to happen in addition to that video crash. Since I corrected this I have not had a BSOD with the nvidia drivers. Oh I have XP Pro BTW. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif I think also at the time I also had some beta drivers so that didn't help. So if you get a lot of blue screens on 2k or XP then something is screwy with your hardware or some gimped software or OS config. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

-SirKnight

[This message has been edited by SirKnight (edited 09-04-2002).]

Dan82181
09-04-2002, 02:21 PM
knackered,
for the last year, year.5, that I've been using W2k, I've only experienced a stop screen twice, both times related to a NIC going bad and fowling something up on me (IRQ_LE error). I've had my 8500 in my system since May and have never gotten any stop screens (managed to lock my computer up with my GL programs, but those are bugs I've been reporting to the ATi guys and gals) But in terms or normal system operations, I couldn't be happier with the card. Same thing goes for ye'olde GF2MX I had before it, never had any problems whatsoever with it except for goofy problems with my apps.

Staying on topic...
As for RenderMonkey, I like the way it looks and feels so far, but I'm still finding my way around it. I'll reserve judgement once it's at version 1.0, but so far my thumb is having an opposite gravity effect about it http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

Dan

vshader
09-04-2002, 06:30 PM
knackered, not sure if this is what you're after, but there is a great .pdf on ATIs site called "designing a shader library for next-gen hardware" or something like that, that talks about implementing just the kind of scripting system u mentioned. also the .pdf on "designing Sushi - how hardware guys make 3d graphics engine" (again, approx title) is also very good.

i was so inspired i have spent the last week or two playing with Flex and Bison trying to get something similar up and running... very cool. lets me link up various shader variables to attributes of any node in the scenegraph etc.

zed
09-04-2002, 07:25 PM
>>Basically, I want an open ended, future proof(ish) system for setting up shaders/combiners.<<

i havent seeen rendermonkey so i cant comment.
ive written my own shader language before they became the latest in thing http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif now everyones doing it the b*stards http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif
anyways its similar to quake3 but more advanced.
basically each shader is a txt file which does the same effect BUT with various tradeoffs
eg
shader 1
{
the shader with all the bells + wistles (will be chossen with good hardware)
}
..
shader 4
{
a plain decal texture
}
each shader consists of various skins (a bit like passes)

the advantage of this is very easy to expand (with new cards) + tailor make to specific hardware. also for any shadrer language it must be written as a text file (u will usually want to tweak things in game).
ive written an app that makes these text file (what rendermonkey does i gather but mines less advanced).

on the subjects of crashes yes i to find when win2k does the BSOD 90% of the time the fault lies with the nvidia drivers (maybe theyre not at fault but thats the text i usually seen on my screen ie nv34573845 was a bad boy)

knackered
09-04-2002, 11:52 PM
OT: I'm willing to entertain the idea that my radeon is in some way physically damaged - that would be the only legitimate explaination (other than bad drivers) for it consistantly giving me blue screens in all the PC's I've tried it in, with every driver release since god-knows-when. Unfortunately, to confirm this I'd have to buy another radeon, but from what I've read on the web about other peoples experiences with ati drivers, I don't think there's enough of an argument to warrent spending more money on ati hardware. BTW, I've never had *any* blue screens with *any* nvidia cards on *any* win2k PC with *any* of their driver releases - this is a very good record.

On-topic:
@vshader : I've read that document, yes - its very vague.

Robbo
09-05-2002, 12:59 AM
I haven't blue screened once with my new Athlon XP using NVIDIA drivers. With my old pc (mostly the same hardware), which was ****e, I used to blue-screen about once a day. That is, until I removed my even older TV card - which fixed the problem totally http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

knackered
09-05-2002, 02:08 AM
Let's draw a line under this subthread about ati drivers
---------------------------------------------------------------
Now, about RenderMonkey....

knackered
09-09-2002, 11:34 AM
Ok, I have some questions for ATI.

1) why is there no option to map different index arrays, even though this is detailed in your document?
2) The 'usage' field in the stream mapping dialog - when you select binormal or tangent, does it generate these at the shader preprocessing stage in your d3d previewer?
3) (related to 1) what other uses do you see with being able to use different geometry in different passes *apart* from fur (and glows)?
4) (related to 1) you automatically generate the fins? or load them in from another model file?
5) can you please explain the stream mapping dialog to me? for instance, if I select FLOAT4 for my position usage, does it internally create another array of n float4's and copy the vertices into this?

There's so much that needs clarifying with this app...

zed
09-09-2002, 08:08 PM
does rendermonkey work with gf2mx?
ive downloaded it + installed it + ran it but all all shaders (i load) give no visual output, i can click on things + change them but get no visual represntation of whats happening http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/frown.gif
check the docs!
i would luv to but win2000 wont load it without crashing (cant convert graphic format or something)
please whoever writes the docs use something that everyone can read eg pdf,html(better)
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/searc...=925&Show=Alpha (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/searchdl.asp?Search=Keywords&LangIDCODE=20%3Ben-us&Value=word+viewer&OpSysID=925&Show=Alpha)

vshader
09-09-2002, 09:10 PM
knackered - i can answer 3 for you...

i am setting up a system like the render monkey one, and i've found a good use for the different geometry/different passes idea. i use a specially prepared shadow volume mesh in the stencil buffer pass and then the normal mesh for the shading passes. the shadow volume mesh has extra tris inserted on each edge so i can do shadow volume extrusion totally on the GPU.

also i define 2d, wireframe, 3d, scene editor etc versions of an objects shader, and many of these may need different geometry. for example, in an editor view, you might want to draw something with a sprite icon rather than its mesh... but it's helpfull to have all the styles for one object controlled from a single file. actually i have one file that defines all the different rendering styles for a given object, and the actual shaders for these styles live in separate files - some models use several shaders, different ones on different sections. the style definition in the first file assigns shaders to groups, based on the material assignments done in the 3d editor.

hope that helps...

knackered
09-09-2002, 11:33 PM
I'm all for centralisation, vshader, but I've always believed that a shader should describe the rendering of a mesh - shadow volumes are essentially different meshes, whos only relation to the mesh that casts them is at the scene hierarchy level, not the shader level. In other words, I would have thought it better to have a shadow shader which draws the shadow volumes completely seperately from the meshes (not just in a second pass of the original mesh). In my opinion, enabling multiple meshes within a shader is going to be a bit of a performance loss.

vshader
09-10-2002, 10:34 PM
yeah - i proabaly wasn't very clear, but i actually agree with you 100%.

that's why when i was implementing this render-monkey style system, i split the scripts into two separate entities- a "renderscript" that describes different draw styles for a particular actor, which can involve different meshes for different styles (eg with the "shadow volume" draw style), and a "shaderscript" file that has the shader (and fallbacks) for one mesh (or part thereof) only.

the renderscript describes relationships that only exist at the scene-graph level, really. actually within the system i ended up with a "shader" object being equal to the combination of a compiled shaderscript and a particular bit of geometry. so the same shaderscript bound to two different meshes and compiled equals two different "shaders"... if that makes sense.

chrisATI
09-11-2002, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by knackered:
Ok, I have some questions for ATI.

1) why is there no option to map different index arrays, even though this is detailed in your document?
2) The 'usage' field in the stream mapping dialog - when you select binormal or tangent, does it generate these at the shader preprocessing stage in your d3d previewer?
3) (related to 1) what other uses do you see with being able to use different geometry in different passes *apart* from fur (and glows)?
4) (related to 1) you automatically generate the fins? or load them in from another model file?
5) can you please explain the stream mapping dialog to me? for instance, if I select FLOAT4 for my position usage, does it internally create another array of n float4's and copy the vertices into this?

There's so much that needs clarifying with this app...

1) i can't find this in the document. perhaps you are confusing stream mapping??

2) the model loader module is responsible for providing this data to rendermonkey. rendermonkey then builds it's streams according to the stream mapping you've set up.

3) a "pass" in rendermonkey is just a draw call. if you want to draw two models (each having it's own shader), each one gets it's own pass.

4) which sample are you referring to?

5) in this case, it would allocate 4 floats in the stream for position. check out D3D's description of stream mapping for a full understanding of how this works.

i hope this helps! --chris

chrisATI
09-11-2002, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by zed:
does rendermonkey work with gf2mx?
ive downloaded it + installed it + ran it but all all shaders (i load) give no visual output, i can click on things + change them but get no visual represntation of whats happening http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/frown.gif
check the docs!
i would luv to but win2000 wont load it without crashing (cant convert graphic format or something)
please whoever writes the docs use something that everyone can read eg pdf,html(better)
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/searc...=925&Show=Alpha (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/searchdl.asp?Search=Keywords&LangIDCODE=20%3Ben-us&Value=word+viewer&OpSysID=925&Show=Alpha)

rendermonkey will run on any hardware. however it won't be very interesting on a gf4mx seeing as this hardware doesn't support shaders.

the documentation is available as a pdf on the web page: http://www.ati.com/developer/sdk/radeonSDK/html/Tools/RenderMonkey.html

--chris

knackered
09-11-2002, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by chrisATI:
1) i can't find this in the document. perhaps you are confusing stream mapping??

Not the rendermonkey docs, but the "Designing a games shader library for current and next generation hardware". Is this not based on your rendermonkey library?
I assumed it was, otherwise why recommend and document an approach you don't use in practice?



2) the model loader module is responsible for providing this data to rendermonkey. rendermonkey then builds it's streams according to the stream mapping you've set up.


So rendermonkey will simply fail if this data is not presented to its stream mapper?



3) a "pass" in rendermonkey is just a draw call. if you want to draw two models (each having it's own shader), each one gets it's own pass.


Ok.



4) which sample are you referring to?


The one in the "Designing a games shader library..." document I refer to (above).



5) in this case, it would allocate 4 floats in the stream for position. check out D3D's description of stream mapping for a full understanding of how this works.


I understand. But this mapping is done at initialisation time?

zed
09-11-2002, 10:03 AM
chris sorry about the b*itch (downloading a huge file like it takes ages for ppl like me with dialup only to find it doesnt work http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif)
anyway i think ive spotted the cause of the error it requires win2000 -> SP2 (which i havent installed + most likely will not install as i hardly ever use windows + remember the grief i got last time i installed a windows os sevrice pack a few years ago)

chrisATI
09-11-2002, 02:38 PM
Not the rendermonkey docs, but the "Designing a games shader library for current and next generation hardware". Is this not based on your rendermonkey library?


That document was about designing the Shader Library component for a game engine. It was based on the Shader Library we use for our demo engine. RenderMonkey isn't a Shader Library, it's a tool for developing shaders. --Chris

knackered
09-11-2002, 11:53 PM
...which must use a games shader library architecture, otherwise...well, otherwise you'd have to hard code everything.

V-man
09-12-2002, 05:51 AM
OK, so I downloaded RenderMonkey but being suspicious that it might not work.

When I try to run it, I get a missing DLL :
MSIMG32.dll

PLease don't tell me, but I need IE6 and also DX8.1 to get this running.

OK, I'm begging, please don't make software that depends on other software. It is extremely ennoying. Next thing you know, it needs Office XP and other MS products because of some OLE crap.

How can I fix it so that DX8.1a is not required and ditto for IE.

When is the linux version due?

V-man

knackered
09-12-2002, 05:55 AM
It's a DirectX8.1 app, vman - how do you suppose ATI could make it:

a) not depend on dx8.1,
b) run on linux

???

You're being silly now, aren't you?

V-man
09-12-2002, 03:43 PM
Ok, so there is nothing about gl in there??? I thought it was a dev tool for both sides.

I have written a register combiner version of one of the demoes, but I would like to be able to use this thing.

To ATI team : What are the future plans for Rendermonkey?

V-man

dorbie
09-13-2002, 07:44 AM
knackered, who built your BSOD system together?

You right?

Quit blaming ATI because you can't lash together a working PC :-)

knackered
09-13-2002, 10:30 AM
What on earth are you talking about, you silly scottish person?

SirKnight
09-13-2002, 11:10 AM
Heh, knackered, I guess you don't get the joke there. 'BSOD system' as in Blue Screen Of Death, you know, WINDOWS; how it likes to give us non-stop BSODs. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

Just the other day for some unknown reason, I got a BSOD during boot up, saying something about a driver, yet I didn't change a single thing. Crazy windows. Oh and the thing is, I got this error before when I installed some gimped drivers for something and of course it was all nice and blue and such. But this time it was black! That is the first time I have ever seen windows give me a BSOD that was black instead of blue. Gimped I say! http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

-SirKnight

zed
09-13-2002, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by V-man:
Ok, so there is nothing about gl in there??? I thought it was a dev tool for both sides.

I have written a register combiner version of one of the demoes, but I would like to be able to use this thing.

To ATI team : What are the future plans for Rendermonkey?

V-man

in the pdf on their site they mention a opengl version is planned

davepermen
09-13-2002, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by SirKnight:
Heh, knackered, I guess you don't get the joke there. 'BSOD system' as in Blue Screen Of Death, you know, WINDOWS; how it likes to give us non-stop BSODs. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

Just the other day for some unknown reason, I got a BSOD during boot up, saying something about a driver, yet I didn't change a single thing. Crazy windows. Oh and the thing is, I got this error before when I installed some gimped drivers for something and of course it was all nice and blue and such. But this time it was black! That is the first time I have ever seen windows give me a BSOD that was black instead of blue. Gimped I say! http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

-SirKnight

my dad one time got an RSOD.. a red screen.. dunno how he got _THAT_ working http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

and don't listen to knackered, he had some personal problems with an ati. possibly his girl left him due to a bsod one time, or so.. he's very biased and doesn't care about real statistical facts, but loves to live in his own clouds where ati is still instable all over the world, hehe http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

take the red pill, knacky, see that ati works as well as nvidia (and if you follow the current development flow of nvidia, you would not want to get an nv30. they could be instable due production errors http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif)

dorbie
09-13-2002, 02:05 PM
knackered,

I'm talking about the responsibility of someone who builds a PC to take ownership for that system and make it work. I've seen all sorts of issues putting PCs together, one system (with an NVIDIA card!) I could HEAR AGP bus transfers on the AC97 audio channel. Another with an NVIDIA card had all sorts of problems w.r.t. graphics data integrity. I've even seen a series of driver updates increase the heat load in my case and cause system instability. A friend bought a spanking new NVIDIA GeForce 4600Ti and had horrible problems. They just couldn't make it work, it turns out MSI had screwed up the bus mastering on their early boards but shipped the thing anyway. I'm not knocking NVIDIA, it's just the way PCs are.

My point is that a PC is a complex system with all sorts of electrical emissions inside the case, thermal loads and airflow that can change with a card, bus arbitration and a slew of bios settings that might affect all of the above. You have a multitude of motherboard chipset implementations with different designs and different motherboard layouts with each chipsets. On top of that you have OEMs cutting corners on their graphics card designs and customers buying the cheapest brand on the shelf thinking all are equal (and no real way to tell which is best).

You saying you had problems with ATI cards and particularly you insisting that it's all the drivers and ATI need to work on their drivers, makes you look like a fool. But OK keep calling me a silly Scot as you make a laughing stock of yourself.


[This message has been edited by dorbie (edited 09-13-2002).]

davepermen
09-13-2002, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by dorbie:
one system (with an NVIDIA card!) I could HEAR AGP bus transfers on the AC97 audio channel.

you've seen my system? hm no, i don't have AC97. but i can hear the agp bus transfer to my gf2mx as well.. and its annoying that the gpu locks the soundsystem nearly completely if there is a high fillrate..

this is not a problem of nvidia, this is a problem of the pc. the combination makes a pc stable or instable, not only the components (the pc worked perfect with the standart ati rage that was in..).

dorbie
09-13-2002, 02:18 PM
Dave,

The mobo I saw this on was an ASUS A7M 266.

A mobo bios and 4in1 driver update (VIA chipset) + ASUS driver update fixed it and a few other issues but caused other stability gremlins at the same time, I can't narrow it down I did the whole thing together but most likely it was the 4in1 update that did the trick.

You may want to risk an 4in1 driver update if you have a VIA design especially if it's an ASUS mobo.

[This message has been edited by dorbie (edited 09-13-2002).]

V-man
09-13-2002, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by zed:
in the pdf on their site they mention a opengl version is planned

Yes, I saw that, but what's holding them back from making an opengl plugin (or whatever they want to call it) available now.

I'm wondering if they will open source it.

PS: red BSOD? black BSOD? Must be a bug!

V-man

zed
09-14-2002, 12:21 AM
>>red BSOD? black BSOD<<

the BSOD in the xboxs aint blue (i forget what color they are)
persumably now ms can say with the xbox u wont get a BSOD http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

V-man
09-14-2002, 10:34 AM
You know what's funny? Kids are usually rough with their toys. They dont read instruction manuals and such.

If the Xbox is writing to the hard disk and the kid shuts it off, wont that screw things up?

I don t have Xbox. Are you saying that it has crashed on you?

V-man

Humus
09-14-2002, 10:46 AM
xbox is targetted on a more mature audience, like 16 and up. GameCube is more for the kiddies. That's at least my understanding ... (which may be completely off http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif)

zed
09-14-2002, 08:34 PM
thats a common misconception

xbox targeted for 13-18 boys (these happen to be the age/sex segment with the largest ratio of game players) - personally i think it was an unwise choice on ms's part to target them cause the ps2 has the market sewn up practically.
gamecube all ages under 40 (family console with more games the mature (like me 31 who only plays mr do HS-338,000 at present) user wants to play ) then again its not exactly selling droves either

knackered
09-15-2002, 07:58 AM
Dorbie, get back in your cage. If you feel I'm making a fool out of myself, then that's up to you - you have done nothing except point out the obvious and insult my PC building capabilities, even though none of these problems are related to my single home built machine - as I've said, it happens on a Fugitsu, a ZX10, a HP, a Dell, and an SGI. You're saying these are 'lashed together'? Strange how they're regarded as some of the best performing workstations around...but I'm sure you know much, much better dorbie, as you seem to about most things discussed on this site.

Other people, please refrain from hijacking this thread to talk about such mundane stuff - the ati sub-thread was started because rendermonkey blue screens when run with *my* radeon.
This is a thread about RenderMonkey, and its usefulness.

SirKnight
09-15-2002, 11:11 AM
Dorbie, get back in your cage.


How about you guys settle this in a nice friendly game of UT2k3. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

Any word on when the SDK for RenderMonkey is going to be released? Besides "soon." http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif Since I dont have a PS1.4 capable card I would like to write a plugin for ogl so I can convert these shader effects to something I can run. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/biggrin.gif

-SirKnight