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View Full Version : Win2K SP2 still ships OpenGL 1.1



Siwko
05-18-2001, 05:38 AM
There you go. The promised OpenGL 1.2 DLL's are not being shipped with Service Pack 2.

Of course, as I recall, Microsoft said 1.2 would ship with "a future service pack for windows 2000". Meaning, probably SP-Never.

Siwko

Nutty
05-18-2001, 07:25 AM
WHAAAATT!!!! M$ Haven't updated their OpenGL dll!?!?!?! Quick! Pass the smelling salts.. I feel a little faint.....

Nutty

GKW
05-18-2001, 07:40 AM
Come on, be nice. It's a small company and they are still trying to allocate resources to the project.

paddy
05-18-2001, 07:51 AM
Does anyone want to make 3d textures in software ????

Just kidding http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

IsaackRasmussen
05-18-2001, 07:56 AM
I would say that when you think of it. It isn't nearly that bad afterall.

Think, with extensions, you know that you'll get accelleration. Think of it as like DX's CapBits.

Siwko
05-18-2001, 07:58 AM
Hehehehe... I love you guys.

Siwko

Hull
05-18-2001, 08:17 AM
Mmmmm... Linux.

http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

ET3D
05-18-2001, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by IsaackRasmussen:
Think, with extensions, you know that you'll get accelleration. Think of it as like DX's CapBits.

You have no guarantee that the extension is in hardware. None. In fact, EXT_texture3D
is supported all on NVIDIA hardware from the TNT up. In software, of course.

Go to the software vs. hardware thread on the suggestions forum, and cast your vote for a method to detect software rendering http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif

JD
05-18-2001, 10:55 AM
Seriously guys, why would ms wanted to update ogl and make competition for their directx? I wouldn't and neither would you if you were rational, that's my own thinking. Besides the competition I read on ms directx mailing list that there is already a scramble for human resources at ms. Isn't d3dx licensed from berkely? Let's face it, ogl 1.1 is the last release on windows, stick to linux or beos for 1.2

*It's all my speculation of course http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

Don't Disturb
05-18-2001, 11:11 AM
DX isn't really appropriate for more scientific stuff, so if M$ wants to keep customers from that area it would be sensible for them to get their act together with this.

JD
05-18-2001, 12:19 PM
I guess it depends on the needs of the individual. Ms probably feels more people need game api now and are catering to them. If there were more scientific guys coding on ms platforms ms would cater to them I guess http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif Anyways, I feel that ogl will flourish on linux or other open source os because of the free access to its internals.

I have few questions now. Does mesa do hardware acceleration or software only? Is mesa the only free and open source ogl like api or are there others? Someday would like to try linux/ogl as I feel a common accessible(source code) os is important for software longetivity. Nevermind the handful of game nuts on linux, as I feel games will have to be written first to attract audience in linux world including driver gys. Then we could get out of a catch 22 situation.

IsaackRasmussen
05-18-2001, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by ET3D:
You have no guarantee that the extension is in hardware. None. In fact, EXT_texture3D
is supported all on NVIDIA hardware from the TNT up. In software, of course.


Ohh... that sucks!

rts
05-18-2001, 12:53 PM
I have few questions now. Does mesa do hardware acceleration or software only?


Both.



Is mesa the only free and open source ogl like api or are there others?


Only one I know of.

JD
05-18-2001, 01:42 PM
Thanks rts http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif Could you spare me little more of your time? Please http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

The way I understand opengl under windows is that ms provides a opengl32.dll that contains all wgl and gl functions. Then video chip driver exports few specific non opengl calls that the ms opengl32.dll calls, right? What about under linux. I just came from nvidia driver faq page and am confused about their binary only opengl driver. Does nvidia writes all opengl and non-gl functions in the driver itself and you call those from their dll like you would from ms opengl32.dll? I have geforce2 gts coming my way so naturally my curiosity is heightened http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif There are some good per pixel lighting demos done with opengl I like to try, don't feel like tessalating down the geometry is appropriate or is it faster than per pixel lighting? Back to linux, ATI gives specs out so does it mean mesa wrote ms opengl32.dll equivalent? Can someone shed some light on this linux/ogl driver situation? And what about glu library under linux? Does nvidia wrote that too? Can I use hw opengl without mesa? Lots of q's but I'm slow, thanks in advance http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

rts
05-18-2001, 02:03 PM
The way I understand opengl under windows is that ms provides a opengl32.dll that contains all wgl and gl functions. Then video chip driver exports few specific non opengl calls that the ms opengl32.dll calls, right?


Beats me. I don't do Windows.



Does nvidia writes all opengl and non-gl functions in the driver itself and you call those from their dll like you would from ms opengl32.dll?


Things are different in the nvidia world. I don't have an nvidia card, so the following may be wrong.

As I understand it, nvidia not only provides drivers, they also provide an implementation of OpenGL for Linux that replaces Mesa.

So it goes something like:

nvidia OpenGL --> nvidia X driver --> nvidia kernel module --> H/W.

I think.



There are some good per pixel lighting demos done with opengl I like to try, don't feel like tessalating down the geometry is appropriate or is it faster than per pixel lighting?


I don't know.



Back to linux, ATI gives specs out so does it mean mesa wrote ms opengl32.dll equivalent?


Yes.



Can someone shed some light on this linux/ogl driver situation?


That's what I'm doing, I hope.



And what about glu library under linux? Does nvidia wrote that too?


I believe so. There is also Mesa-GLU.



Can I use hw opengl without mesa?


If you are using an nvidia card you will be doing HW OpenGL without Mesa, since all Nvidia stuff is closed source/closely guarded secrets.


More general info available at http://dri.sourceforge.net/ and http://www.mesa3d.org/ and http://www.xfree86.org/

Cheers

JD
05-18-2001, 03:15 PM
Thanks for taking the time to answer my q's http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif Now the whole mesa vs. nvidia makes sense to me.

Nutty
05-19-2001, 08:29 AM
Hey guys.

I believe someone (maybe SGI) is currently trying to find a work-around for the OpenGL32.dll problem.

Any you guys read the OpenML announcement. The specifications should be published soon. It's funny to see that M$ isn't in the list of participants on that project! http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

Nutty

P.S. Finally got my GF3 stable with a bigger PSU! Though I had to disable one of my case fans aswell! Guess I need an even bigger PSU! :eek:

JD
05-19-2001, 10:57 AM
Nutty, what's the minimum PS wattage gf3 system needs, I've got 300w. You using AMD or Intel cpu?

Nutty
05-19-2001, 11:14 AM
I've got an Athlon 1Ghz. I was using a 250, with combined rating of 125. This 300 has a combined rating of 150. Which still aint powerful enuff. Probably want a combined rating of 160 minimum.

The 300 Watter my PC supplier is getting for me is 160 combined, so I'm just using this one till then.

Nutty

JD
05-19-2001, 02:05 PM
That 300w is it AMD approved? Mine is. Do the amd approved PS have higher combined rating than generic PS? I too have 1ghz tbird but geforce2, one harddrive and cdrom also pc2100 ddr ram coming my way. Hope my PS will be able to run them.

P.S. what does the combined rating mean? Thanks.

[This message has been edited by JD (edited 05-19-2001).]

Tim Stirling
05-20-2001, 12:25 AM
This talk of PSUs is concerning me because I thought 300W would be a safe bet, I have never seen a PSU more powerful (seen duel PSUs but even so) I was planning to build a TBird box and have everything majorly overcloked with loads of 120mm fans and orbs, heatsinks, card coolers, HD coolers etc. Plus there might be 2 HD and a CDRW and maybe also a DVD. An overclocked GeForce 3 of course- as long as you get the stepping 3(I think) you can get a 15% OvCl easy and you end up with an GeForce 3 Ultra. The case is a full tower case that will come with a 300W PSU, don't know its combined rating (don't know what this is, can you explain).

Do You think a better PSU is needed?, what should I go for ??


Tim

ffish
05-20-2001, 01:07 AM
Check this one out! Might be a bit more powerful than you need (a bit more powerful than anyone needs IMHO) and a bit pricey but (like you by the sounds of it) I love playing with hardware http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif
http://www.dansdata.com/eg651p.htm

Nutty
05-20-2001, 02:45 AM
Combined rating is the maximum load the PSU can supply across the 3.3 volt line, and 5 volt line.

You can calculate by multipling 3.3 by the maximum current at 3.3, + 5 * maximum 5 volt current.

It's usually written on the PSU. AMD recomend a minimum of 160 combined. This 300 one, is only 150. But the new 300 W one I'm getting is 160. It is AMD approved also. AMD approved PSU's are all at least 160 combined. If I were to buy a new system I'd probably go for a 350 or 400 Watt.

This PSU is not AMD recomended. But the new one I'll be getting is.

Dont even think about running a GF3 on an AMD system with a 250 watt PSU. Not enuff power at all.

Make sure the PSU you get is listed here http://www1.amd.com/athlon/power

Nutty

[This message has been edited by Nutty (edited 05-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Nutty (edited 05-20-2001).]

JD
05-20-2001, 07:07 AM
Thank you for your information. Now I can sleep better http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

GT5
05-20-2001, 09:17 PM
hmmm this thread slowly drifted from the real topic to something different.

So, is MS ever going to release 1.2?


Come on, be nice. It's a small company and they are still trying to allocate resources to the project.
roflmao!!!

[This message has been edited by GT5 (edited 05-20-2001).]

Nutty
05-20-2001, 11:41 PM
Unless someone puts the pressure on, I'd say no, or not until DX 10 / 11 is out at the earliest.

Nutty

zed
05-21-2001, 01:16 AM
if i was ms i'ld wait until intel or whoevers on the ARB whos working on the replacement for opengl32.dll(1.2) releases it. then release it (ms's version). hehe

Hull
05-21-2001, 05:06 AM
Now I dislike M$ even more. I will never touch D3D again, and I will tell all my friends about it and why.

M$ 'brain' must be totally incompetent.

Do they REALLY not understand the consequences of their actions?

Everything they do will turn around and bite them in the end.

Now that is just dumb.

JD
05-21-2001, 08:09 AM
>> Now I dislike M$ even more. I will never touch D3D again, and I will tell all my friends about it and why. <<

Somehow I don't think this will accomplish anything. If dx is better than ogl why the heck would you want to go with inferior product? Are you that blindingly loyal? Game developers need money and there's a competition so if you can get your product out faster you can beat others and saturate the market before they do. Look at your requirements, find an api that meets them, use that api and don't blindingly follow the herd. There is no loyalty in business, business is about extracting as much money as possible i.e. evaluate people's propensity to consume for the product.

Repeat after me: I will draw specs, then I will research suitable api, then I will make a game. And again http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif In another words don't become another linux like zealot just because it's fasionable http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

dx8 pros:
texture loading functions
math library

ogl pros:
wireframe that works
easy to use
red book and tons of online tutorials

and others I can't remember off the top of my head. (this goes for both api)

Siwko
05-21-2001, 08:18 AM
Oh no. I've started another MS vs. OGL war. Shame on me!

This really wasn't what I had in mind though, I was just trying to be informative.

Siwko

JD
05-21-2001, 09:10 AM
No you didn't http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/wink.gif When you throw in strengths and weakneses of both api and try to make the research easier for someone who's trying to decide which api will suit him I call that an informative comparison http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif Anyways, I too like to know where the ogl is heading on the ms platform. I think nvidia guys might know but perhaps are under nda. I can only speculate that it isn't going to be released soon. If rumors are to be believed then gf3 was delayed because of the work on xbox, ms doesn't have full resources for dx and I would think even less for opengl.

P.S. I'm sorry for power supply off topic discussion, I thought this thread was dead and so I went little off tangent.

Nutty
05-21-2001, 11:57 PM
Personally I have no gripe about off-topic discussions. Provided it stays in the realm of computing in general.

I thought the GF3 delays were due to insufficent yield quantities in the fabrication process. I believe they had to redesign the chip several times in around march/april to make it easier to produce.

Nutty