PDA

View Full Version : Microsoft and OpenGL



Jan
07-17-2002, 11:52 AM
From the MSDN-Library:

"OpenGL requires Microsoft Windows NT, Windows 2000, or Windows 95/98. For more information on which operating systems are required for a particular function, see the Requirements section of the documentation for the function."

I always thought GL would also run under Linux and Unix. God bless the MSDN-Library, now I finally know the truth about it. And in the MSDN of Visual Studio 8 they reveal to us that MS has invented OpenGL!

Jan.

nexusone
07-17-2002, 12:00 PM
God don't get me started on Micro$oft....
http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

But they do now for the most part own openGL IP....

http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/frown.gif



Originally posted by Jan2000:
From the MSDN-Library:

"OpenGL requires Microsoft Windows NT, Windows 2000, or Windows 95/98. For more information on which operating systems are required for a particular function, see the Requirements section of the documentation for the function."

I always thought GL would also run under Linux and Unix. God bless the MSDN-Library, now I finally know the truth about it. And in the MSDN of Visual Studio 8 they reveal to us that MS has invented OpenGL!

Jan.

MrShoe
07-17-2002, 03:17 PM
Hoew could they own an open source software?? isnt OGL open source??
And doesnt the ARB kinda control what happens to OpenGL, of which M$ is only one member, with lots and lots of other powerful members like SGI and NVIDIA

HemiMG
07-17-2002, 03:39 PM
Microsoft is claiming control over some key patents related to OpenGL. I'm not sure of all the details but from what I've heard they've really got OpenGL ARB over a barrell. Of course with EVERY other major OS AND the nintendo gamecube supporting OpenGL you can understand why they are scared. If Direct3d gets dethroned as the prominent gaming API then it'll make it alot easier for most developers to bring games to other platforms.

nexusone
07-17-2002, 04:37 PM
Micro$oft a some time back bought some of the IP patents from SGI for 3D rendering.
Micro$oft said they needed it for their x-box, but I think they wanted to gain control of there only competing graphics API.
Thus is Linux became a big problem, they could shut down opengl for linux. What would linux be without a 3D graphics API.

But you must remember that even though opengl is open source the parts of the rendering IP is now owned by Micro$oft, they could demand that the parts of opengl that uses the IP they own be taken out. Imagine opengl having to remove the important rendering functions.


Originally posted by MrShoe:
Hoew could they own an open source software?? isnt OGL open source??
And doesnt the ARB kinda control what happens to OpenGL, of which M$ is only one member, with lots and lots of other powerful members like SGI and NVIDIA

Citizen Thomas
07-17-2002, 06:53 PM
"OpenGL requires Microsoft Windows NT, Windows 2000, or Windows 95/98. For more information on which operating systems are required for a particular function, see the Requirements section of the documentation for the function."

When reading the MSDN documentation, it's implied that only MS operating systems are being discussed. So when it says that you need Win 9x/NT/2K to run OpenGL, it means that Win 3x/CE don't support OpenGL, but it's not implying anything about non-MS operating systems such as Linux. There's no foul play here.

Robbo
07-17-2002, 11:45 PM
I don't think OpenGL *is* open source; it is open standard however (a subtle difference). M$ I believe are acting in good faith. They are duty bound to reveal IP issues to other ARB members (of course).

Morglum
07-19-2002, 03:40 AM
"OpenGL is Open Source" does not have much signification. Because OpenGL is not a piece of code. The OpenGL implementations are, though. Most OpenGL implementations are not opensource, but MESA (By Brian Paul, I think) is opensource.

Morglum
07-19-2002, 03:51 AM
About MSDN : as I have recently understood, and pointed out on this bboard, there are many "errors" in MSDN about OpenGL. For example, if you look in the documentation for glInterleavedArrays, you'll see that it can't be compiled within a display list. That's obviously false (as says the SuperBible) and anyway I've tested it by myself.

One might say that it is just a local error, but no, if you look it other parts of the MSDN collection (eg, I think, the help for glDrawElements), you'll always see the same nonsense.

Then one might think, the guys from microsoft didn't know that vertex arrays were compatible with display lists. Once again, that can't be the case. Because the OpenGL implementation which I use (and which is most commonly used) for Windows98 is by microsoft. So they have written that code. So they can't ignore how it works.

That's why I think that microsoft makes conscious errors in the MSDN collection. One might ask why ? Don't know. Probably to make Direct3D look more attractive (I think D3D hasn't display lists, so dlists would be a special openGL feature, so they'd like to make it look crappy...)

Morglum

Deiussum
07-19-2002, 04:39 AM
I am not sure what version of MSDN you are referring to but the Jan. 2001 version I have says this about glDrawElements and display lists...



You can include the glDrawElements function in display lists. When glDrawElements is included in a display list, the necessary array data (determined by the array pointers and enables) is also entered into the display list. Because the array pointers and enables are client-side state variables, their values affect display lists when the lists are created, not when the lists are executed.



And this about glInterleavedArrays...



If you call glInterleavedArrays while compiling a display list, it is not compiled into the list but is executed immediately.



Both of which are essentially correct so far as I know. glInterleavedArrays just sets the pointers. It doesn't draw anything, it is effectively executed immediately as that is a "client-side" thing.

And as it says for glDrawElements, the elements are compiled into the display list as the array data exists at the time the list is compiled. If you try and change the array, and execute your list again, those changes don't take effect.

Morglum
07-19-2002, 05:56 AM
Ah, Deiussum, you've teached me something. I have the same text for glInterleavedArrays, but I interpreted it in a wrong way : I thought that it meant that the call to glInterleavedArrays would have no effect for the display list... I must be somewhat paranoiac. That's normal for a windows coder : so many crashes ... I'm moving to linux http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Morglum (edited 07-19-2002).]

Deiussum
07-19-2002, 09:24 AM
Heheh, no problem. I do know that there were some mistakes in older version of MSDN. I think for example, older versions had the wrong number of parameters for one of the gl*Pointer methods. The version I currently have seems to be fairly accurate, though.

Nakoruru
07-19-2002, 07:58 PM
Morglum,

I think you should look at your thinking patterns and realize that you came up with a conspiracy theory based on your own misunderstanding. Its healthier to believe that you have made a mistake in your perception than to make up something like a conspiracy to explain things.

From my understanding, the documentation that is in MSDN is the same as the OpenGL man pages on Unix!

To the original poster,

This whole topic is ridiculous. You propose that when Microsoft says in its documentation for Microsoft supported APIs that a certain Microsoft operation system is required to use OpenGL that they are somehow excluding all Non-Microsoft operating systems, and that this somehow translates into then claiming invention of OpenGL. That is so stupid it hurts my head to imagine it!

That is like saying that because a sales brousure from Toyota says that only Celica GT4's, MR-2's, and Supra's are equipped with turbos that somehow Toyota is claiming to be the only maker of turbo-charged cars. Not only that! But that Toyota is claiming to have invented the turbo (that is a non-sequitor, i.e., it makes no sense to conclude that Toyota is claiming to invent the turbo, even if you believe they are claiming to be the only ones that have it).

So, you thought something stupid, then you made a stupid conclusion from it.

Please people, lets not let this board turn into slashdot!

[This message has been edited by Nakoruru (edited 07-20-2002).]

k3v0
07-20-2002, 11:05 AM
when i heard about this i started crying http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/frown.gif

t0y
07-20-2002, 01:58 PM
The MSDN OpenGL pages also resemble (sometimes word for word) the Blue and the Red books, so it probably wasn't written by someone at microsoft.

You can say they are a bit old, but that's it.

DelNeto
07-20-2002, 04:31 PM
Just think about...

Microsoft is tring to put OpenGL in they hands. They whant to do what they do with theirs competidors. Get it / Buy it / kill it.

The real target of Microsoft names LINUX, if OpenGL goes out, LINUX games tend to reduce and Microsoft games tend to goes up.

I beleave that LINUX is the point.

Microsoft Book to market:

KILL Lotus 123...
KILL Wordstar...
KILL OpenGL...
KILL not Microsoft Soft.

CopyCat
07-21-2002, 01:19 AM
What Linux games ?
The Mac and Amiga game market is bigger then Linux game market.
Look at it.
The only company that makes in-house ports is like ID software ( BioWare is willing to port NwN to LINUX platform....but for now we only have linux ded server. ).
And that my friend are ports...that mostly are avalible layter then the win32 versions.
The potential market is big....but ask avarage linux 'gamer'...how much would he pay for a game ?

Just look how LOKI went down...that should be a hint how linux gaming market looks.
And look at other facts...a lot of windows games use OGL API ( well maybe not a lot but many - 5-10% not more hehs ) - and are they ported ? nope.

Look at linuxgames.com and see how the linux gaming market looks.
90% of the games on linux are like GNU GPL projects.

( and please don't get me wrong...I love Linux and other *nixes andhate win32 and M$ for that how he is using his monopoly position - I would love to have more games on Linux and I would pay for them > http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubb/smile.gif )